Some facebook feedback from JW's:
"A little piece of the coming New System. So hard to leave on Sunday, especially after the last talk - it's fantastic!"
"Loved every minute of 'God's Word is Truth' Convention."
Posts by zound
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612013 District Convention Program: Gods Word is Truth!
by bats in the belfry in.
unlike god's word, that jws believe to be absolute truth, any one of their directives given at the 2013 district convention could be subject to misinterpretation.. .
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For lurkers and newbies who think Jehovah`s Witnesses are better people than most
by smiddy inwhy dont you look up on the internet crimes comitted by jehovah`s witnesses , i think you will be very surprised.the majority of cases are comitted by dedicated baptised witnesses , not newly interested ones that you can excuse away.and the crimes range from anything minor to outright murder .. and remember ,jehovahs witnesses are only a minority religion and yet crimes comitted by them far outstrip the national average.. i`m sorry i cant put up the links .i`d appreciate it if someone can .thanks heaps.. smiddy.
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zound
I used to have the view as many did/do that at heart most JW's are very good people - just delusional.
But the thing is, compare an average JW with an average person off the street - the person from the street may drink a little too much, maybe swear a bit, maybe steal office supplies from work on occasion, maybe not declare all of their income at tax time.
The average JW won't do any of those things - but they will refuse their children a lifesaving operation if in that posiiton. I'm so thankful I was never in that position as a child - if I was I wouldn't be here to talk about it.
Delusional or not, compare a JW and you'll see how dangerous and destructive they are.
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Question regarding Faith...(adamah)
by tec inpeace!.
you have stated (and others have agreed and stated the same) that faith is not based on evidence, or it is not faith to begin with.
may i ask you, then, if you think the apostles and early disciples, who walked with christ, had faith?
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zound
I put faith in Christ... and let Him teach me. And of course, he is right there in front of our 'faces', and was all along. "I am the Truth. Listen to ME. Follow ME." Not ourselves, not men, not religion... just Him.
I think I might be repeating myself, but it's worth repeating. Your descriptions of how you know the Christ is truth - this faith you put in him, are descriptions that have the possibility of being simply human delusion. I have no doubt that you are not making any of this stuff up - I have no doubt that these are strong feelings you are having, but the most intense feelings and expereinces can be induced by the human brain. Looking at that God helmet video above also demonstrates this.
Humans are extremely susceptable to delusion.
It's really not good enough to say - well it's just a different feeling, it's different than just hearing voices in your head, it's not coming from me it's coming from Christ.
Nevermind about proving this to us - you can't possibly prove this to yourself. In a nutshell: internal experiences and feelings like this cannot be trusted and shouldn't be. There are perfectly good phsycological reasons to explain them.
That really should be enough to disprove Christ talking to people in their heads, if he really wants be heard then he should do something SUPERNATURAL - not something that could easily attributed to an ordinary delusion that many people have regarding many different things - the woman who drowned her children, she said CHRIST WAS TALKING TO HER - how can you possibly say she was not listening to THE CHRIST, her experience would have been similar to yours, perhaps even more intense.
but that is not THE Christ (Jaheshua), because all that He HAS taught us is against harming or killing others, and drowning one's own children (or anyone) is against love as well.
Christ hasn't said drown your children - but his father has said sacrifice your son (to abraham).
If Christ told you tomorrow to do something that was out of the ordinary to what he usually says, would you then realise you're listening to the wrong Christ, or would you accept it?
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Who is your favorite "Apostate"? Who helped you see the truth about "The Truth"?
by minimus ini would have to say that ray franz was the biggest influence for me.. when i first got on this board, a poster by the name of james, a former bethelite and organization heavy, helped me understand a lot of the inner workings in the upper echelons of the society.. .
and of course, farkel's common sense approach was (usually) helpful..
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zound
Sparlock.
Not kidding by the way, that little guy is who set me on this path.
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Okage Takes Issue with: November 1st 2013 Watchtower Magazine
by okage injust a few issues i had from looking at this potential new york-printed toilet paper:.
pg 4: the lie that made god nameless.
this sub-article talks about how god's name is jehovah and quotes isaiah 42:8 "i am jehovah.
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zound
So.. what would happen if a JW started using the name YHWH when answering questions at the Watchtower, giving talks and conversations with brothers and sisters?
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Candace Conti v Watchtower Society | September 2013 | Watchtower's Reply Brief | A136641
by jwleaks injw leaks has published the appellant's reply briefs in the case: "candace conti v. watchtower bible and tract society of new york & north fremont congregation of jehovah's witnesses".. 67 pages (wtbtsny) and 58 pages (nfcjw) including documents of service.. .
www.jwleaks.org.
jw leaks.
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zound
An interesting part from the VS Fremont Congregation brief.
In the instant action, the court below took the unprecedented step of holding that the Appellants had a duty to protect the Plaintiff by warning the congregation members about Kendrick's molestation of his stepdaughter. However, that the court did not take the required next step and define how the Defendants must give that warning.
Would it be weekly, monthly, semi-annually, annually? Would the Congregation have to post a notice in its meeting place? Does the Congregation have to take attendance to make sure that all members were present for the warning? When non-members attend, do they have to be warned, too? When people move into the area and begin attending meetings, do they have to be warned? If the allegation is denied, must the congregation still warn? Must the congregation warn members of neighboring congregations that the accused molester might visit? Does the Congregation have the duty to warn non-members who may visit Kendricks home? Does that duty to warn last until the death of the accused? These are vexing questions for which neither Plaintiff nor the lower court has any answers. Page 36.
The answer of course is - Wait on Jehovah.
Indeed the trial court allowed the jury to speculate that the Congregation and Watchtower had a duty to protect Plaintiff from sexual abuse by Kendrick 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year.
Exaggerate much?
The part directly after that is also interesting - they bring up the unprecedented ruling of the court that the organisation has a 'duty of care', that may affect other religious organisations, and say that this ruling would be a burden on 'society' (when have JW's ever given a damn about 'society'?)
Doing so would also likely result in financial ruin for any organisation allowing children to participate in their activities, resulting in less participation by families in religious activities. This should not be a burden society should be forced to bear in an attempt to protect children when other reasonable and effective measures are available.
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Candace Conti v Watchtower Society | September 2013 | Watchtower's Reply Brief | A136641
by jwleaks injw leaks has published the appellant's reply briefs in the case: "candace conti v. watchtower bible and tract society of new york & north fremont congregation of jehovah's witnesses".. 67 pages (wtbtsny) and 58 pages (nfcjw) including documents of service.. .
www.jwleaks.org.
jw leaks.
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zound
To me their argument reads like a study edition Watchtower.
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Question regarding Faith...(adamah)
by tec inpeace!.
you have stated (and others have agreed and stated the same) that faith is not based on evidence, or it is not faith to begin with.
may i ask you, then, if you think the apostles and early disciples, who walked with christ, had faith?
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zound
No one would be able to convince you that he did not exist after that.
This ABSOLUTE conviction in something that admittidly went on in your head and your feelings is a little scary.
The whole JW situation came from those ***holes in Brooklyn taking advantage of peoples 'faith' or 'hope' to believe in certain things. Perhaps deluded themselves, but regardless, the Brooklyn boys encouraged this 'blind faith' - resulting in JW's that regardless of the evidence, regardless of anything they may see or hear about Watchtower's lies, regardless of their own doubts they WILL GO DOWN WITH THE SHIP. They will weather any storm and eventually die thinking that armageddon is just around the corner etc etc.
I think most ex-JW's would know at least one JW like this - the Watchtower doctrine is so much a part of their brain that the Watchtower society could completely self destruct and these diehards will ignore it completely and stick with what they are totally convinced is true.
The point of mentioning that is - you say that this time you've cracked it! This time you are REALLY convinced. This time you KNOW. Nothing could possibly convince you otherwise. No room for doubt.
Do you see what I'm getting at here? You can replace the JW experience with a Muslims experience, with a Budhists experience, with any number of persons experience that do not even have anything to do with a particular religion.
It's easy to say, "well they were just deluded, they are just misled - they are listening to Jesus but not KNOWING Jesus."
You are claiming faith. ABSOLUTE conviction. Unshakable. Anything me or others have to say could not possibly shake your faith. Any evidence could not possibly shake your faith about Jesus.
Can you see the similarities in this conviction with convictions such as the JW's or lets say that woman in the US who drowned her children in the bathtub because 'Jesus told her to'. You've attempted to explain the distinction, but could you have another attempt at how you see the distinction there?
Hope I'm not coming across as aggressive - I'm asking these things to challenge my own beliefs also, not just to try and prove a point.
On a side note:
You are willing and fairly good at explaining your reasoning (though I don't agree with it) - I wonder if you would mind giving me some feedback in the near future on a project/article I'm working on regarding trying to teach people critical thinking ability? I'd appreciate a firm believers feedback, suggestions on it - and you seem very articulate, engaging and definately a firm believer. -
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Question regarding Faith...(adamah)
by tec inpeace!.
you have stated (and others have agreed and stated the same) that faith is not based on evidence, or it is not faith to begin with.
may i ask you, then, if you think the apostles and early disciples, who walked with christ, had faith?
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zound
but that can only happen, imo, if they did not KNOW Christ, to begin with. Because if you KNOW someone, you cannot be convinced that they do not exist.
I thought I knew Jesus when I was a JW. I was convinced, I would have even died for that belief if the circumstances played out that way (thankfully they didn't). I think you and me can both agree that I was oh so wrong.
Because I know better. I have heard too much... and been shown too much... and received understanding and answers that I know did not come from me... to be able to doubt the One speaking to me, or His Father. Although even back then, I knew that God was present, and that He had heard me, and that He would do as I had asked, as He willed. And I know enough now - even intellecutally - to recognize from that experience, that peace from my Lord.
I'd ask you to look at the following video. It is something called a "God Helmet", that activates a part of the brain which gives people the sense that they are 'not alone'. It has been used on various people of different faiths, or some with no faith at all. The point is, this kind of experience you describe is something that can be explained in our makeup - humans are very suseptable to delusion - especially deluding oneself.
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Candace Conti v Watchtower Society | September 2013 | Watchtower's Reply Brief | A136641
by jwleaks injw leaks has published the appellant's reply briefs in the case: "candace conti v. watchtower bible and tract society of new york & north fremont congregation of jehovah's witnesses".. 67 pages (wtbtsny) and 58 pages (nfcjw) including documents of service.. .
www.jwleaks.org.
jw leaks.
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zound
Oh boy here we go! Downplaying child abuse again - classy Watchtower. Page 21, here's an excert:
But even if the elders had any knowledge about Kendricks prior action, Plaintiff's hyperbole, equating Kendrick with a "vicious dog" has no place in any serious consideration of the issues presented either below or here on appeal.