For order and freedom to exist in the universe, such things are a logical necessity. Earthquakes might seem random and cruel but not compared to the cost of not having them which is no intelligent life or life without freedom like robots. It comes down to asking a mother whose kid dies at an early age. Would she have preferred for that child to never be born or to at least have some life? Better it is to love and lose then never to have loved at all, is what most would probably answer. Logic itself restricts good from existing without bad as height without depth. So just as good in the universe doesn’t prove Gods existence then neither does bad disprove it!
Seraphim23
JoinedPosts by Seraphim23
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754
Theists, why does God allow suffering..
by The Quiet One in..specifically, the suffering of animals.
you can talk about free will/sin/people choosing to not listen to god etc to explain human suffering being allowed.. but how can you love a god that allows animals, that haven't sinned or chosen to not have anything to do with god, to have their short lives ended in often long, drawn out, painful ways.
i could list stories i've read that would probably make you feel ill, but i'm not looking to shock anyone or start an emotional debate.
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47
If you were on your death bed, what is the ONE thing you would say you have learnt ?
by new hope and happiness ini think i would say " you can not change others you can only change your self" .
if you cant think of anything what is the next number in this sequence?.
what do these sums have in common?.
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Seraphim23
O boy I’m looking forward to the next adventure!
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If it weren't illegal...
by Rattigan350 ini was listening to a circuit overseer's talk and he mentioned about how a sister wanted to simplify.
she had a couple of dogs.
then he related that she said that all she had to do was get rid of the dogs.
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Seraphim23
That `questions from readers` article is so odd on so many levels. I looked up the verses cited and it’s not really talking about apostasy the way the WT defines it anyway. The verses they quote deliberately omit the part about worshiping other gods. How many people get kicked out for apostasy defined by idol worship? Not that I think stoning to death is ever acceptable as I don’t. I just had to point out that the verses they use don’t support in any way the points they make. The idea of drawing people away from Jehovah is contextually linked to idols and other gods and getting others to do the same, in a time where tribal identity was how ancients civilizations held order and governance together. Plus a tribe wondering about in a wilderness before getting a home land hardly seems like a shining example of the ideal “theocratic nation” whatever that would be anyway. It is all very strange paranoid behaviour from the WT even if the article was in the 1950s.
Certainly it seems that many would have been better off by never reading a bible in the first place in terms of acting with morality in their own minds.
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What would be a scientific description/explanation of what God is?
by EndofMysteries inbased upon descriptions in the bible and what is known scientifically so far, what would god actually be?
lightning comes out of the throne.
no man may see and live.
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Seraphim23
I don’t think that an `infinity` can really have a scientific description myself.
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Atheism is a Belief System
by seekchristonly inis atheism a belief system.
after all the atheist believes there is no god .so if that's the case then an atheist if a person of faith.
they have faith in the fact there is no god.
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Seraphim23
I wonder if the real question should be whether atheism is a religion rather than a belief system! Anyhow my view is that all views constitute a belief system, if they attach to a greater body of views or `world view` that has internal logic within itself. It doesn’t matter if logic breaks down outside the system of belief. For example, the belief that squares are in fact circles would not constitute a belief system unless this view implied other things connected with the belief. It has to be a system of belief!
To state that God does not exist implies quite a few other things besides the God part. In this regard it becomes a system of belief. The fact that God cannot be proven to exist or not exist, makes any statement about his existence a belief system for both believer and non-believer.
To put it very simply, all views and ideas, except for pure mathematics, that cannot be 100 percent proven are belief systems. It does not matter if they are views about things existing or not existing because even a negative belief is still a belief. The fact that even science doesn’t deal in proof is evidence that this is the case. So yes atheism is a belief system.
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754
Theists, why does God allow suffering..
by The Quiet One in..specifically, the suffering of animals.
you can talk about free will/sin/people choosing to not listen to god etc to explain human suffering being allowed.. but how can you love a god that allows animals, that haven't sinned or chosen to not have anything to do with god, to have their short lives ended in often long, drawn out, painful ways.
i could list stories i've read that would probably make you feel ill, but i'm not looking to shock anyone or start an emotional debate.
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Seraphim23
I wouldn’t concern myself with one less virtue than you have already cofty. My responsiveness to human suffering relates to real people, not pictures taken from the internet as a tactic to try and win a point in a discussion.
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754
Theists, why does God allow suffering..
by The Quiet One in..specifically, the suffering of animals.
you can talk about free will/sin/people choosing to not listen to god etc to explain human suffering being allowed.. but how can you love a god that allows animals, that haven't sinned or chosen to not have anything to do with god, to have their short lives ended in often long, drawn out, painful ways.
i could list stories i've read that would probably make you feel ill, but i'm not looking to shock anyone or start an emotional debate.
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Seraphim23
I’m not sure it would be a very tactful thing to say to this lady in the picture! However it would not be untrue to say that without evolution and all its tooth and claw, over millions of years, she and her beloved child would not ever have been born in order for this sad occurrence to have ever happened in the first place. Would you say to her that it would have been better if she or her child had never been born, or that evolution is best if it had not ever happened because of this picture? Is that facile? When many die in an earthquake it is due to a natural mechanism that allows life to exist on earth, which also allows many to enjoy aspects of life. This poor ladies suffering cannot be separated from what all experience in this life both good and bad.
Pointing to this emotive bad picture is an attempt to side-line the logical connection between good and bad.
Even evolution demonstrates that good comes with bad and with bad good!
When it comes to animals, I would certainly agree that an animal couldn't enjoy its life without the possibility of dying of cancer generally speaking, because mutation of cells is one way evolution works.
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754
Theists, why does God allow suffering..
by The Quiet One in..specifically, the suffering of animals.
you can talk about free will/sin/people choosing to not listen to god etc to explain human suffering being allowed.. but how can you love a god that allows animals, that haven't sinned or chosen to not have anything to do with god, to have their short lives ended in often long, drawn out, painful ways.
i could list stories i've read that would probably make you feel ill, but i'm not looking to shock anyone or start an emotional debate.
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Seraphim23
God allows suffering because it is not possible to have good without bad, pleasure without pain and up without down. One logically necessitates the existence of the other.
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15
Do you agree or disagree with this statement?
by KateWild inonly assertions that can be proven scientifically, empirically or logically should be accepted as true.. kate xx.
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Seraphim23
An interesting question!
I would say science cannot answer logically why it itself exists and is thus limited in scope. To do so would need something more than logic! Logic is limited although very useful I admit but it can’t cope with certain questions such as infinity. Logic points to infinitely but cannot cope with what it is.
The empirical part is problematic because our own inner world is real but not empirical, as it is not physical in nature. Also empiricism is limited to logic and science which have their own issues as I said.
However on a general level I would say the exceptions prove the rule, that yes `assertions that can be proven scientifically, empirically or logically should be accepted as true.`
Another point, I would venture to say is that even truth itself is limited, as least as far as science and logic are concerned. Science only ever deals in `theories` as one level better than` hypothesis` but it never gets to the proof level which is reserved for known mathematics. The problem with known mathematics is that its only truth value, outside of itself that is, lies in its relationship with the physical world. However the physical world is only understood as theory, not truth. Mathematics is not the physical world; hence it is a guide only as far as truth is concerned.
Known and proven mathematics then is true but only so in the subjective human mind and not in the empirical world. I hope this didn’t sound too convoluted.
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ONE REASON
by snare&racket inout of interest, and to formulate a cordial chat, would you give your top one reason for your belief or non belief?.
my foremost 'one reason' for non belief is:.
the historical evidence that provides an explination and timeline for how the modern religious doctrine's and dogma developed over time.. .
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Seraphim23
My top reason for belief in God, is that to me it is the best philosophical explanation for there being something, as opposed to nothing before reason is exhausted and logic itself runs out of steam.