Posts by 1009

85

I'm thinking about going back

by Corboy101 in

jw
friends

i have been out for 22 years.i was raised as a jehovahs witness.

i was baptized in 1986 but soon after left the religion.

theres a whole lot to the reasons why i left, but i left.

My goodness, what a bunch of negativity. One of you ever refers to a book called ' Freedom of Mind'. Corboy101 too has the freedom to choose whatever religion he wants, and he apparently DID see some of them. So if he wants to go back: let him go back! Without any judgment on your part. Even on this board h ate-speech and i nciting hatred on the basis of religion are forbidden.

I have totally lost my faith in God. But I agree with Corboy10 that he should primarily focus on doctrines, because all people make mistakes. In my opinion most JW are just dumb, passive followers, incapable to study the Bible themselves. But all the JW I knew (even if I did not like some (most?) of them), were sincere.

I still think the JW are right involving doctrines like f.e. the trinity, the mortality of the soul and pagan holidays. Whether Paul was a tentmaker or not, whether christians should use a Metonic cycle to calculate the date of the Memorial... for me those are minor details. During my years as an active JW I found many of those minors points in which I disagreed with the WTG. I didn't care. And I loved discussing them with some elders who had a similar attitude. But some other doctrines are more important, and it is up to Corboy10 to take a position in those.

So my advice to Corboy10: make a list with doctrines. Which doctrines are (according to you!) important, and which less important? With which doctrines do you agree, and with which do you disagree? If there are any important doctrines with which you do not agree: can you subject yourself to the authority of those who take the lead ? As long as you can, you should go for it.

Corboy10, I wish you all the best in whatever you choose to do.

22

The most important day of the year. Sometimes. Sort of.

by Jeffro in

for jehovah's witnesses, the "most important day of the year" is supposed to be the 'memorial'.

this 'sacred' event is to be held after sunset on nisan 14. except most of the time, it isn't.. as 'explained' in the watchtower, 1 february 1976, page 73, the "governing body" (not capitalised at the time) takes it upon itself to 'determine' the 'actual' date of nisan 14. they claimed in the article that the 'modern' date for the start of nisan in the hebrew calendar is calculated differently to the ancient calculation.

however, that's not actually the case.. the actual calendation for determining the start of nisan was (since at least the neo-babylonian period) and is based on the metonic cycle - a sequence that repeats every 19 years.. in the metonic cycle, the 3rd, 6th, 8th, 11th, 14th, 17th and 19th years have an extra (thirteenth) month (adar ii, or veadar).

1009

The 'brothers' simply do not use the 'Metonic cycle'. According to Insight that system started about 500 B.C.

Therefore they use the date of the equinox (14th day after a visible new moon that is closest to the equinox). They probably reason that the moon that God created is more important than a human calender.

What I always considered a weird practice. Imagen that the sunset is about 7:30 pm. So the elders gather and choose 7:00 to start the Memorial. But Jesus probably started his Last Supper a lot later, they finished after midnight. And the next morning or so he died. And that day is hardly marked in a JW-calendar...

25

Less than one third (1/3) of Jehovah's Witnesses will survive Armageddon

by Calebs Airplane in

in the early 80's when i was just a teen, i was out in field circus one day when i overheard our cobe (called president at the time?

) telling another elder that, if armageddon were to come tomorrow, less than 1/3 of the congregation would survive.

this was actually in a bakery as we were just finishing up and they didn't even notice me standing in line as they were too busy drooling over the pastries and talking trash about a ministerial servant who decided not to go to field circus that day for whatever reason.

1009

When I was still JW, I had the same thoughts: most JW will probably not survive Armageddon. Because honestly: most JW are indeed 'bench warmers', no way better than the average church-goer. I always saw that most JW were only JW because of the social environment, not to worship Jehovah. They don't read the Bible, they don't study the Bible (at best they tick off their Watchtower), they are never up to date with new light, they only go into the field service because they have to. So what makes them better than worldly people? Just because they believe in other doctrines? Nonsense, faith must be proved by works. And I considered myself better because I did study the Bible thoroughly and preached zealously.

What a waste of my life!

4

The New World Translation in Papiamento

by 1009 in

in 2011 the wbts released the new world translation in papiamento.

papiamento is the language from the netherlands antilles (aruba, bonaira, and curacao), which i have mastered well.. upon reading the translation i was shocked: this isn't the nwt anymore.

there are other bible translations in papiamento that a better representation of the english nwt than the papiamento nwt.

1009

Bobcat said:
How is Luke 6:38 translated?

Basically not very different from the English version:

New World Translation in Papiamento (2011):

Kustumbrá duna, i hende lo duna boso. Nan lo basha den boso skochi un midí kompleto, bon primí, bon sagudí ku ta basha over. Pasobra ku e midí ku boso ta midi, nan lo midi pa boso.”

Literal English translation of the NWT-PA:

Practice giving, and people will give to YOU. They will pour into YOUR laps a fine complete measure, good pressed down, good shaken together and overflowing. For with the measure that YOU are measuring out, they will measure out to YOU in return.

Nice test though.

4

The New World Translation in Papiamento

by 1009 in

in 2011 the wbts released the new world translation in papiamento.

papiamento is the language from the netherlands antilles (aruba, bonaira, and curacao), which i have mastered well.. upon reading the translation i was shocked: this isn't the nwt anymore.

there are other bible translations in papiamento that a better representation of the english nwt than the papiamento nwt.

1009

In 2011 the WBTS released the New World Translation in Papiamento. Papiamento is the language from the Netherlands Antilles (Aruba, Bonaira, and Curaçao), which I have mastered well.

Upon reading the translation I was shocked: this isn't the NWT anymore. There are other Bible translations in Papiamento that a better representation of the English NWT than the Papiamento NWT. In my last months as JW, I made a detailed study of the translation of Matthew. Many phrases aren't translated literal, and many words are added or omitted. It's just a very bad translation.

Some remarkable points:

No more hades: hades is always translated with 'grave'.
No more 'memory graves': even John 5:28 uses 'grave' (with 'memory grave' in the footnote).
“Exercise faith” became 'put faith' (with 'demonstrate faith' in the footnote; see other topic).

Note that although Papiamento is a relatively simple language, literal translations are almost always possible.

Some examples from Matthew:

Book	Chapter	Verse	NWT in English	Literal English translation of the NWT in Papiamento
40	1	18	But the birth of Jesus Christ was in this way. During the time his mother Mary was promised in marriage to Joseph, she was found to be pregnant by holy spirit before they were united .	Now then, the birth of Jesus Christ was in this way. While his mother Mary was engaged to marry with Joseph, Maria became pregnant by holy spirit before they married ,
40	1	19	However, Joseph her husband, because he was righteous and did not want to make her a public spectacle, intended to divorce her secretly.	However, her husband, Joseph, was a righteous man, and he did not want to embarrass her publicly. Therefor he intended to divorce her secretly.
40	1	20	But after he had thought these things over, look! Jehovah's angel appeared to him in a dream, saying: "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary your wife home , for that which has been begotten in her is by holy spirit.	But after he had thought about these things, an angel of Jehovah appeared to him in a dream, and said to him: "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to marry Mary for the reason that she became pregnant , for that took place by holy spirit.
40	5	17	"Do not think I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I came, not to destroy, but to fulfill;	"Do not believe I came to end the Law or the teachings of the Prophets. I did not came to end them , but to fulfill them ;
40	5	18	for truly I say to YOU that sooner would heaven and earth pass away than for one smallest letter or one particle of a letter to pass away from the Law by any means and not all things take place.	for truly I say to YOU that heaven and earth have more chance to pass away than for one smallest letter or part of one letter to pass away from the Law without all what is written in it take place.
40	5	19	Whoever, therefore, breaks one of these least commandments and teaches mankind to that effect, he will be called 'least' in relation to the kingdom of the heavens . As for anyone who does them and teaches them, this one will be called 'great' in relation to the kingdom of the heavens .	Therefore, he who breaks one of these least commandments and teaches others to do the same, will not be worthy to enter the Kingdom of heaven . But who does them and teaches them to others, this one will be worthy to enter the Kingdom of heaven .
40	5	20	For I say to YOU that if YOUR righteousness does not abound more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, YOU will by no means enter into the kingdom of the heavens.	For I say to YOU that if YOUR righteousness isn't superior than the scribes and Pharisees practice, YOU surely will not enter into the Kingdom of heaven.
40	5	21	"YOU heard that it was said to those of ancient times , ' You must not murder ; but whoever commits a murder will be accountable to the court of justice.'	YOU heard that it was said to our ancestors : 'Don't murder; but whoever murders will be accountable to the court of justice.'
40	5	22	However, I say to YOU that everyone who continues wrathful with his brother will be accountable to the court of justice; but whoever addresses his brother with an unspeakable word of contempt will be accountable to the Supreme Court; whereas whoever says, 'You despicable fool !' will be liable to the fiery Ge·hen'na.	But I say to YOU that who stays angry with his brother, will be accountable to the court of justice. But who despises his brother with a low word will be accountable to the Supreme Court, whereas who says, 'You useless fool!' will risk to receive punishment in the fire of Ge·hen'na.
40	5	31	"Moreover it was said , 'Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.'	Moreover you heard in the past: 'Who divorces of his wife, let him give his wife a letter of divorce.'
40	5	32	However, I say to YOU that everyone divorcing his wife, except on account of fornication , makes her a subject for adultery , and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.	But I say to YOU that who divorces of his wife, except when the wife commits fornication , lets his wife risk comitting adultery , and whoever marries this divorced woman commits adultery.

The Papiamento translation can be download here: http://www.jw.org/download/?fileformat=PDF&output=html&pub=bi7&langwritten=PA&option=TRGCHlZRQVNYVrXF

I made a further study of the translation of hades. The first translations of the NWT in which I do not encounter hades are Swahili (1996), Serbian and Croatian (1999). But later translations like Ewe (2007) and Gun (2009) do use hades. More recently there were also releases in Latvian and Lithuanian: Lithuanian does have hades, but Latvian not.

I wonder if many of the changes are policy, and thus an indication for a new upcoming NWT in English.

Any further suggestions/requests for comparison?

28

John 3:16 - "EXERCISE faith"...??

by EdenOne in

the nwt often uses the expression "exercise", when it comes to the expression of faith.. "a notable use of that is in john 3:16 - for god loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.".

i started to be intrigued by the expression "exercise faith".

it is true that james wrote that "faith without works is dead", meaning that faith must be more than just an inner feeling or an oral statement; it must be evidenced by works.

1009

Maybe it is interesting to see how recent translations of the NWT translate the phrase.

New World Translation in Papiamento (2011)

Pasobra Dios a stima mundu asina tantu ku el a duna su Yu unigénito, pa tur ku pone fe* den dje no bai pèrdí, ma haña bida eterno.

* Of: “demostrá fe.” E verbo griego ta nifiká mas ku djis rekonosé ku un persona ta eksistí. E ta enserá un grado di akshon tambe.

Literal translation: For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that all who put faith* in him will not be lost, but receive eternal life. * Or: “demonstrate faith.” The Greek verb means more than just acknowledge that a person exists. It implies a degree of action also.

Later I'll make another topic about the Papiamento translation of the NWT.

44

Newby here

by 1009 in

jw
friends

i am new here and briefly want to introduce myself.. my name is michel and i am from the netherlands.

became baptized when i was 14, started pioneering when i got 18 and i've been ms for a number of years.

i married another pioneer and after a while we joined a foreign language congregation.

1009

Thank you all for the warm welcome.

Freedom4all said:
Goedemorgen Michel

Leuk om niet de enige ote zijn. Volgens mij zijn er nog wel meer.

Gopher said:
Are your parents still JW's, and if so how are you getting along?...
I moved toward agnosticism slowly but surely after I made my way out

My parents got divorced and my father was DF when I was 6 years old. We had contact frequently, even after I became pioneer and MS. My mother became 'inactive' a few years ago. Both were very suprised with my DF, but support me all the way.

About the agnoticism: same here.

Cadellin said:
First, female sexuality operates completely differently then men (okay, flaming obvious, right?) As a woman, at least for me, desire moves in tandem with ovulation. Ovulation=horniness. Wrong time of the month? Men are just not that appealing--it's not that desire is completely gone, but the flames need to be very deliberately fanned through fantasy and erotica. Most good JW women wouldn't dream of doing such things and so, if it's a non-ovulating time, they're going to be as dead as doornails. I suspect most good JW wives are like that A LOT of the time. Plus they're not going to experiment with new moves, like oral sex, that can stir the flames nicely.

Agree. But with the note that real asexuality goes further. Like a sexual preference. In the case the lack of the desire.

ABibleStudent said:
I'm curious if you have any residual feelings that the WTBTS might still know the "Truth" about the Bible. I know a former JW who does not believe that the Bible is the word of God, but does believe that the WTBTS does know the "Truth", if it is the word of God. The WTBTS's BITE control techniques are very powerful and may affect you for a long time after living the WTBTS.

I don't believe in a God anymore. For me the Bible isn't much more than a nice old book. But i recognise the influence you're refering to. I'm still convinced that JW are a lot closer to the Bible than other religions. Although I also see their mistakes.

44

Newby here

by 1009 in

jw
friends

i am new here and briefly want to introduce myself.. my name is michel and i am from the netherlands.

became baptized when i was 14, started pioneering when i got 18 and i've been ms for a number of years.

i married another pioneer and after a while we joined a foreign language congregation.

1009

Julia Orwell said:
Sorry about your first wife: what does it mean to be asexual?

In the case of my ex-wife, it is a complete lack for sexual desire. She didn't like to get touched, she didn't like sex. I could... uhm... 'mount' her and do my thing, but that wasn't really satisfying for me neither.

Over the years I sometimes thought that maybe I was the problem. But I am very gentle, not badlooking, and I don't have a bad smell. In my new relation I learned that I am completely normal. And I do not have any desire to watch any porn anymore.

You can find more about asexuality at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asexuality.

44

Newby here

by 1009 in

jw
friends

i am new here and briefly want to introduce myself.. my name is michel and i am from the netherlands.

became baptized when i was 14, started pioneering when i got 18 and i've been ms for a number of years.

i married another pioneer and after a while we joined a foreign language congregation.

1009

Hi all,

I am new here and briefly want to introduce myself.

My name is Michel and I am from the Netherlands. Became baptized when I was 14, started pioneering when I got 18 and I've been MS for a number of years. I married another pioneer and after a while we joined a foreign language congregation. I always loved the 'responsabilities', and especially giving talks.

But over the years my faith faded. My wife was asexual and I started to satisfy my sexual desires by visiting pornographic websites. I hated it, but I couldn't resist it either. When it came out, I lost all my priviliges. The elders wanted to help us. I prayed a lot. But nothing happened. It was very quiet up there in heaven. In the end (after years of praying) I drew the conclusion that Jehovah would not help me, despite all the millions of promises in the Bible.

And oh yes, I've studied the Bible. I didn't 'study' the magazines like most of JW: I really loved studying the Bible. I had about 50 different translations, and I used them. Bookshelfs with excellent dictionaries and commentaries. And some other friends who were a lot of deeper into studying as the average JW. I learned that the NW has a lot of flaws. That not all answers in the literature are based upon the Bible.

Finally I met a beautiful woman. I got divorced and DF. And recently I married my new love.

And now I am happier as ever.

Nice meeting you all.

Michel

8

I was reading an "old" Watchtower mag and the "overlapping" generation was hinted at with President Knorr from a QFR

by booker-t in

i was flipping through an old volume of the wt mag from 1952 and a qfr was asked about "this generation" from matthew and the author actually mentioned "overlapping" generations.

i was surprised but it dawned on me that pres knorr toyed with this explaination 60 yrs ago so the new light is really partially "old light" from the 50s.

the sept 1 1952 qfr ask "your publications point out that the battle of armaggeddon will come in this generation and that this generation began ad 1914, scriptually, how long is a generation?

1009

Why 2010? According to the index (Generation, 'understanding clarified') it was clarified in 2008 ( w08 2/15 p. 25 ):

The word “generation” usually refers to people of various ages whose lives overlap during a particular time period or event. For example, Exodus 1:6 tells us: “Eventually Joseph died, and also all his brothers and all that generation.” Joseph and his brothers varied in age, but they shared a common experience during the same time period. Included in “that generation” were some of Joseph’s brothers who were born before him. Some of these outlived Joseph. ( Gen. 50:24 ) Others of “that generation,” such as Benjamin, were born after Joseph was born and may have lived on after he died.

So when the term “generation” is used with reference to people living at a particular time, the exact length of that time cannot be stated except that it does have an end and would not be excessively long. Therefore, by using the term “this generation,” as recorded atMatthew 24:34, Jesus did not give his disciples a formula to enable them to determine when “the last days” would end. Rather, Jesus went on to emphasize that they would not know “that day and hour.”—2 Tim. 3:1; Matt. 24:36.