Posts by 1009

gingerbread
I think some of the ideas expressed here - through Corboy and 1009 - are the 'new' jehovah's witness.

They're still involved because of family and friends. They pick and choose what they want to participate in. They are selective about their associates in the congregation. They have doubts and questions and know it's better to keep this to themselves. They stick with the big 'doctrines' and rules ( blood, neutrality, meeting attendance, regular field service, etc.) but ignore the 'little' stuff. It's no biggie to drink too much, watch 'bad' movies or listen to 'debasing' music, have a 'worldly' girl or boy friend (secret), etc. Just so you show up for service the next morning. They pose as ones 'reaching out' for congregational responsibility. They pioneer (and live at home) so they don't have to get a job. They volunteer for building and remodelling projects. They always have their Watchtower and Jeremiah book underlined.

The 'new' Jehovah's Witness is about appearances. Looking good. Looking right.

I like the label 'new', but can only refer to myself here. I did pioneer for many years, served as MF, including in a foreign language congregation. I did not have close JW-relatives (father DF, mother inactive and an halfsister that I've seen about 10 times in my life). I did have some friends, but for me they weren't a motive to be an active JW. I indeed was very selective with my friends: all of them were elders/MF's, but were somewhat critical like me. I did have a spouse, who I finally left.

'Doubts and questions'? I agreed on some points, and disagreed on other points. I had a lot of questions, but could find my own answers. Why look up to others for answers if you can find them yourself? I did my own Biblestudy, a lot! I used some of the tools of the WT, but had bookcases filled with translations, dictionaries and commentaries. No doubts though: I drew my own conclusions.

I agreed on the bloodissue, partly with neutrality, completely with the meeting attendance and partly with field service (I prefered that to be modernized). I also agreed on most of the moral standpoints.

Was all that for appearances? For who? I was almost totally independent. I just wanted to serve Jehovah in the organisation that I believed was closest to the Bible.

85

I'm thinking about going back

by Corboy101 in

jw
friends

i have been out for 22 years.i was raised as a jehovahs witness.

i was baptized in 1986 but soon after left the religion.

theres a whole lot to the reasons why i left, but i left.

1009

besty
I'm with jeffro on this - in a cult you have to be 100% all in with everything, otherwise you are not a true believer. (and you can't continue to discuss these issues with the leadership - they will give you a pass 1 time, but not if you keep harping on about them)

Now factor in some cognitive dissonance and I can see why you and many others have a shelf on which you store issues for later.

When that shelf gets too heavy, thats the beginning of the end.

In JW theory 'wait on jehovah for increasing light from an imperfect organisation' should counterbalance the heaviest shelf.

Why store the issue 'for later'? What do you want to do with it 'later'? Most things just aren't important enough to make an issue out of it. I don't care very much if Paul was a tentmaker or not (but I find the topic really interesting!). And there many, many of those topics. I think 'sword' in Heb 4:12 is a bad translation (should be scalpel). And 'faith' in Gal. 5:22-23 too (should be reliable). Etc. Etc. I loved discussing these points with some elders. And they had similar points too. But these are non-issues. And heck, even 1914 didn't bother me much.

Now, when you have a problem with major doctrines, it is indeed another story. There the 'wait on Jehovah' plays a role. As well as the statement that the apostles too didn't understand everything. But yes, there comes a point where one can draw the conclusion that this isn't the true religion.

85

I'm thinking about going back

by Corboy101 in

jw
friends

i have been out for 22 years.i was raised as a jehovahs witness.

i was baptized in 1986 but soon after left the religion.

theres a whole lot to the reasons why i left, but i left.

1009

Jeffro
You've only confirmed my point. If someone cares about doctrine, they - by necessity - can't just disregard the ones they don't like. If they can simply disagree with some doctrines and continue as members, then they don't really care about doctrine. And in both cases, unless they are uninformed, they don't really care about truth if they remain JWs.

No, you are missing my point. I cared much about doctrines, but I made for myself a difference between major and minor doctrines, and I did agree with the (in my eyes) important ones.

No reply from Corboy ? I am a suspiscious old fart, but he could be wishing to get us to be as vitriolic as possible about the WT so as to show how "bitter" we Apostates are.

Indeed, it was his one and only post. But you guys indeed turned up to be very bitter.

85

I'm thinking about going back

by Corboy101 in

jw
friends

i have been out for 22 years.i was raised as a jehovahs witness.

i was baptized in 1986 but soon after left the religion.

theres a whole lot to the reasons why i left, but i left.

1009

Jeffro
One JW doctrine is that you can't just 'pick and choose' which doctrines you like. So if you want the option of choosing JWs on the basis of just a few JW doctrines, then JWs isn't the religion for you.

I disagree. Officially you are right, ofcourse. But that's one of the doctrines with which I disagreed and which was not very important to me. So, I was a happy witness by not acceptating all the teachings. Just don't talk about it to loudly.

Actually I think that most JW have a problem with one or more of the official teachings. How many do masturbate, with a clear conscience? How many think they well remarry their spouses in the New World? How many visit JWN? I think a lot of them.

85

I'm thinking about going back

by Corboy101 in

jw
friends

i have been out for 22 years.i was raised as a jehovahs witness.

i was baptized in 1986 but soon after left the religion.

theres a whole lot to the reasons why i left, but i left.

1009

My goodness, what a bunch of negativity. One of you ever refers to a book called ' Freedom of Mind'. Corboy101 too has the freedom to choose whatever religion he wants, and he apparently DID see some of them. So if he wants to go back: let him go back! Without any judgment on your part. Even on this board h ate-speech and i nciting hatred on the basis of religion are forbidden.

I have totally lost my faith in God. But I agree with Corboy10 that he should primarily focus on doctrines, because all people make mistakes. In my opinion most JW are just dumb, passive followers, incapable to study the Bible themselves. But all the JW I knew (even if I did not like some (most?) of them), were sincere.

I still think the JW are right involving doctrines like f.e. the trinity, the mortality of the soul and pagan holidays. Whether Paul was a tentmaker or not, whether christians should use a Metonic cycle to calculate the date of the Memorial... for me those are minor details. During my years as an active JW I found many of those minors points in which I disagreed with the WTG. I didn't care. And I loved discussing them with some elders who had a similar attitude. But some other doctrines are more important, and it is up to Corboy10 to take a position in those.

So my advice to Corboy10: make a list with doctrines. Which doctrines are (according to you!) important, and which less important? With which doctrines do you agree, and with which do you disagree? If there are any important doctrines with which you do not agree: can you subject yourself to the authority of those who take the lead ? As long as you can, you should go for it.

Corboy10, I wish you all the best in whatever you choose to do.

22

The most important day of the year. Sometimes. Sort of.

by Jeffro in

for jehovah's witnesses, the "most important day of the year" is supposed to be the 'memorial'.

this 'sacred' event is to be held after sunset on nisan 14. except most of the time, it isn't.. as 'explained' in the watchtower, 1 february 1976, page 73, the "governing body" (not capitalised at the time) takes it upon itself to 'determine' the 'actual' date of nisan 14. they claimed in the article that the 'modern' date for the start of nisan in the hebrew calendar is calculated differently to the ancient calculation.

however, that's not actually the case.. the actual calendation for determining the start of nisan was (since at least the neo-babylonian period) and is based on the metonic cycle - a sequence that repeats every 19 years.. in the metonic cycle, the 3rd, 6th, 8th, 11th, 14th, 17th and 19th years have an extra (thirteenth) month (adar ii, or veadar).

1009

The 'brothers' simply do not use the 'Metonic cycle'. According to Insight that system started about 500 B.C.

Therefore they use the date of the equinox (14th day after a visible new moon that is closest to the equinox). They probably reason that the moon that God created is more important than a human calender.

What I always considered a weird practice. Imagen that the sunset is about 7:30 pm. So the elders gather and choose 7:00 to start the Memorial. But Jesus probably started his Last Supper a lot later, they finished after midnight. And the next morning or so he died. And that day is hardly marked in a JW-calendar...

25

Less than one third (1/3) of Jehovah's Witnesses will survive Armageddon

by Calebs Airplane in

in the early 80's when i was just a teen, i was out in field circus one day when i overheard our cobe (called president at the time?

) telling another elder that, if armageddon were to come tomorrow, less than 1/3 of the congregation would survive.

this was actually in a bakery as we were just finishing up and they didn't even notice me standing in line as they were too busy drooling over the pastries and talking trash about a ministerial servant who decided not to go to field circus that day for whatever reason.

1009

When I was still JW, I had the same thoughts: most JW will probably not survive Armageddon. Because honestly: most JW are indeed 'bench warmers', no way better than the average church-goer. I always saw that most JW were only JW because of the social environment, not to worship Jehovah. They don't read the Bible, they don't study the Bible (at best they tick off their Watchtower), they are never up to date with new light, they only go into the field service because they have to. So what makes them better than worldly people? Just because they believe in other doctrines? Nonsense, faith must be proved by works. And I considered myself better because I did study the Bible thoroughly and preached zealously.

What a waste of my life!

4

The New World Translation in Papiamento

by 1009 in

in 2011 the wbts released the new world translation in papiamento.

papiamento is the language from the netherlands antilles (aruba, bonaira, and curacao), which i have mastered well.. upon reading the translation i was shocked: this isn't the nwt anymore.

there are other bible translations in papiamento that a better representation of the english nwt than the papiamento nwt.

1009

Bobcat said:
How is Luke 6:38 translated?

Basically not very different from the English version:

New World Translation in Papiamento (2011):

Kustumbrá duna, i hende lo duna boso. Nan lo basha den boso skochi un midí kompleto, bon primí, bon sagudí ku ta basha over. Pasobra ku e midí ku boso ta midi, nan lo midi pa boso.”

Literal English translation of the NWT-PA:

Practice giving, and people will give to YOU. They will pour into YOUR laps a fine complete measure, good pressed down, good shaken together and overflowing. For with the measure that YOU are measuring out, they will measure out to YOU in return.

Nice test though.

4

The New World Translation in Papiamento

by 1009 in

in 2011 the wbts released the new world translation in papiamento.

papiamento is the language from the netherlands antilles (aruba, bonaira, and curacao), which i have mastered well.. upon reading the translation i was shocked: this isn't the nwt anymore.

there are other bible translations in papiamento that a better representation of the english nwt than the papiamento nwt.

1009

In 2011 the WBTS released the New World Translation in Papiamento. Papiamento is the language from the Netherlands Antilles (Aruba, Bonaira, and Curaçao), which I have mastered well.

Upon reading the translation I was shocked: this isn't the NWT anymore. There are other Bible translations in Papiamento that a better representation of the English NWT than the Papiamento NWT. In my last months as JW, I made a detailed study of the translation of Matthew. Many phrases aren't translated literal, and many words are added or omitted. It's just a very bad translation.

Some remarkable points:

No more hades: hades is always translated with 'grave'.
No more 'memory graves': even John 5:28 uses 'grave' (with 'memory grave' in the footnote).
“Exercise faith” became 'put faith' (with 'demonstrate faith' in the footnote; see other topic).

Note that although Papiamento is a relatively simple language, literal translations are almost always possible.

Some examples from Matthew:

Book	Chapter	Verse	NWT in English	Literal English translation of the NWT in Papiamento
40	1	18	But the birth of Jesus Christ was in this way. During the time his mother Mary was promised in marriage to Joseph, she was found to be pregnant by holy spirit before they were united .	Now then, the birth of Jesus Christ was in this way. While his mother Mary was engaged to marry with Joseph, Maria became pregnant by holy spirit before they married ,
40	1	19	However, Joseph her husband, because he was righteous and did not want to make her a public spectacle, intended to divorce her secretly.	However, her husband, Joseph, was a righteous man, and he did not want to embarrass her publicly. Therefor he intended to divorce her secretly.
40	1	20	But after he had thought these things over, look! Jehovah's angel appeared to him in a dream, saying: "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary your wife home , for that which has been begotten in her is by holy spirit.	But after he had thought about these things, an angel of Jehovah appeared to him in a dream, and said to him: "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to marry Mary for the reason that she became pregnant , for that took place by holy spirit.
40	5	17	"Do not think I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I came, not to destroy, but to fulfill;	"Do not believe I came to end the Law or the teachings of the Prophets. I did not came to end them , but to fulfill them ;
40	5	18	for truly I say to YOU that sooner would heaven and earth pass away than for one smallest letter or one particle of a letter to pass away from the Law by any means and not all things take place.	for truly I say to YOU that heaven and earth have more chance to pass away than for one smallest letter or part of one letter to pass away from the Law without all what is written in it take place.
40	5	19	Whoever, therefore, breaks one of these least commandments and teaches mankind to that effect, he will be called 'least' in relation to the kingdom of the heavens . As for anyone who does them and teaches them, this one will be called 'great' in relation to the kingdom of the heavens .	Therefore, he who breaks one of these least commandments and teaches others to do the same, will not be worthy to enter the Kingdom of heaven . But who does them and teaches them to others, this one will be worthy to enter the Kingdom of heaven .
40	5	20	For I say to YOU that if YOUR righteousness does not abound more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, YOU will by no means enter into the kingdom of the heavens.	For I say to YOU that if YOUR righteousness isn't superior than the scribes and Pharisees practice, YOU surely will not enter into the Kingdom of heaven.
40	5	21	"YOU heard that it was said to those of ancient times , ' You must not murder ; but whoever commits a murder will be accountable to the court of justice.'	YOU heard that it was said to our ancestors : 'Don't murder; but whoever murders will be accountable to the court of justice.'
40	5	22	However, I say to YOU that everyone who continues wrathful with his brother will be accountable to the court of justice; but whoever addresses his brother with an unspeakable word of contempt will be accountable to the Supreme Court; whereas whoever says, 'You despicable fool !' will be liable to the fiery Ge·hen'na.	But I say to YOU that who stays angry with his brother, will be accountable to the court of justice. But who despises his brother with a low word will be accountable to the Supreme Court, whereas who says, 'You useless fool!' will risk to receive punishment in the fire of Ge·hen'na.
40	5	31	"Moreover it was said , 'Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.'	Moreover you heard in the past: 'Who divorces of his wife, let him give his wife a letter of divorce.'
40	5	32	However, I say to YOU that everyone divorcing his wife, except on account of fornication , makes her a subject for adultery , and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.	But I say to YOU that who divorces of his wife, except when the wife commits fornication , lets his wife risk comitting adultery , and whoever marries this divorced woman commits adultery.

The Papiamento translation can be download here: http://www.jw.org/download/?fileformat=PDF&output=html&pub=bi7&langwritten=PA&option=TRGCHlZRQVNYVrXF

I made a further study of the translation of hades. The first translations of the NWT in which I do not encounter hades are Swahili (1996), Serbian and Croatian (1999). But later translations like Ewe (2007) and Gun (2009) do use hades. More recently there were also releases in Latvian and Lithuanian: Lithuanian does have hades, but Latvian not.

I wonder if many of the changes are policy, and thus an indication for a new upcoming NWT in English.

Any further suggestions/requests for comparison?