Posts by 1009

2

What Would Jesus NOT Do?

by whereami in

jw
friends

warning to fundies, you might want to avoid this.

your brain might start working.. .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zofjkl-3sne.

10 Questions for Elders when they start annoying you

by Terry in

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1009

I don't think these questions will take you anywhere. Answered from the viewpoints of elders...

1. Why wouldn’t Christians think of their congregation as a kind of hospital? We are sick with sin and we’re trying to get well, right? What hospital kicks the sick ones out the door and keeps the healthy ones?

U nrepentant sinners are like uncooperative patients who refuse treatments. Some 'apostate' patiënts even tell other patiënts not to listen to the doctors anymore.

2. When you hire a coach to get you to the playoffs and win the big game, yet you lose...lose...lose.... do you FIRE him, or, do you keep him on? Well, then, how do you explain Fred Franz being made PRESIDENT after the 1975 fiasco?

What has baseball to do with God's arrangements? (Besides, I think it is pretty stupid to fire a once celebrated coach for loosing one game).

3. Knowledge about life, medicine, science, astronomy, mathematics, physics, chemistry & history is greater and more abundant today than ever before. If you ignore higher education now--who is going to be the most clueless jackass in the room in the years to come?

Who are the jackasses after Armageddon?

4. In a dark room you light a candle. If it is still too dark to see clearly—do you light a new candle and blow out the old one? Then, try again. Explain this New Light crap once more.

Don't take the illustration of 'light' too literal: i t is about comprehension, which grows over the years. See #3: 'Knowledge... is greater and more abundant today than ever.'

5. Humility consists of open willingness to admit mistakes and explain your failures with a promise NEVER to do it again. Arrogance, on the other hand, says this: "At times explanations given by Jehovah’s visible organization have shown adjustments, seemingly to previous points of view. But this has not actually been the case."

Is h aving false expectations a 'failure'?

6. A Faithful Servant does not tell guests what they should eat. A Wise Servant would not dare cry, “Dinner is being served” while the guests just sit and wait and wait--unless he needed to have his crazy ass fired!

The Faithful Servant isn't just any slave, and the ones on the table aren't just guests. "Who really is the faithful steward, the discreet one, whom his master will appoint over his body of attendants to keep giving them their measure of food supplies at the proper time?" (Luke 12:42).

7. Peter denied Christ 3 separate times out of self-regard in the face of danger. Afterward, Jesus gave him the keys to the Kingdom Tell me again how any disfellowshipped person is WORSE?

Because they are unrepentant, Peter was repentant.

8.Willingness to die for a belief seems to be the delight of terrorists and every other radical fanatic. Why do Christians find it heroic too?

Rather death than disobedient. Isn't it heroic to follow the example of Daniels 3 friends, Jesus, and the first century christians?

9. Okay, you're telling me what "this generation" REALLY MEANS now.....so....um...what the hell was all that other crap YOU SAID IT MEANT?

It is an illustration to explain that the end will not come many centuries after 1914.

10. My mother suffered the pangs of birth so I could have life. She fed, me, changed my diapers, held me, dried my tears, taught me right from wrong and was always there for me. What kind of low-life ingrate will it make me IF I turn my back on her now because she won't quit smoking….and you just DISFELLOWSHIPPED HER!!

"Satan himself keeps transforming himself into an angel of light. It is therefore nothing great if his ministers also keep transforming themselves into ministers of righteousness. But their end shall be according to their works." - (2 Cor. 11:14, 15).

16

My first experience at KH

by InChristAlone in

jw
friends

thank you to all of you who commented yesterday.

no doubt you gave me an accurate description of what to expect.

when i first walked in, i was greeted by the jw who calls on my house.

1009

Very recognizable.

John 17:3
Kingdom Interlinear: "But this is the everlasting life in order that they may be knowing you..."
NWT: "This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you..."

Although it is true that the NWT uses 'knowledge' here, the explication in the literature is that it involves a personal relationship:

Many translations of this verse differ slightly from the New World Translation. Instead of saying “taking in knowledge” of God, they simply render the verb “to know” God or “knowing” God. However, a number of scholars note that the sense of the word used in the original Greek involves something more—a continuous process, one that may even lead to intimate acquaintance with another.
- http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/pl/r1/lp-e?q=w02%2012%2F15%20page%208

The practice is different though...

59

Blue Jeans BANNED by Jehovahs Witnesses Governing body

by Watchtower-Free in

for anybody attending a international convention .. 5 body of elders letters just leaked .

"applicant instructions".. ********************.

applicants must be exemplary in every respect, including dress and grooming.

1009

Wasn't there a video with some brothers preaching in Greenland, in blue jeans?

85

I'm thinking about going back

by Corboy101 in

jw
friends

i have been out for 22 years.i was raised as a jehovahs witness.

i was baptized in 1986 but soon after left the religion.

theres a whole lot to the reasons why i left, but i left.

1009

I find it interesting to see the differences between me and you guys and can only conclude that we did not share the same experiences.

gingerbread
I think some of the ideas expressed here - through Corboy and 1009 - are the 'new' jehovah's witness.

They're still involved because of family and friends. They pick and choose what they want to participate in. They are selective about their associates in the congregation. They have doubts and questions and know it's better to keep this to themselves. They stick with the big 'doctrines' and rules ( blood, neutrality, meeting attendance, regular field service, etc.) but ignore the 'little' stuff. It's no biggie to drink too much, watch 'bad' movies or listen to 'debasing' music, have a 'worldly' girl or boy friend (secret), etc. Just so you show up for service the next morning. They pose as ones 'reaching out' for congregational responsibility. They pioneer (and live at home) so they don't have to get a job. They volunteer for building and remodelling projects. They always have their Watchtower and Jeremiah book underlined.

The 'new' Jehovah's Witness is about appearances. Looking good. Looking right.

I like the label 'new', but can only refer to myself here. I did pioneer for many years, served as MF, including in a foreign language congregation. I did not have close JW-relatives (father DF, mother inactive and an halfsister that I've seen about 10 times in my life). I did have some friends, but for me they weren't a motive to be an active JW. I indeed was very selective with my friends: all of them were elders/MF's, but were somewhat critical like me. I did have a spouse, who I finally left.

'Doubts and questions'? I agreed on some points, and disagreed on other points. I had a lot of questions, but could find my own answers. Why look up to others for answers if you can find them yourself? I did my own Biblestudy, a lot! I used some of the tools of the WT, but had bookcases filled with translations, dictionaries and commentaries. No doubts though: I drew my own conclusions.

I agreed on the bloodissue, partly with neutrality, completely with the meeting attendance and partly with field service (I prefered that to be modernized). I also agreed on most of the moral standpoints.

Was all that for appearances? For who? I was almost totally independent. I just wanted to serve Jehovah in the organisation that I believed was closest to the Bible.

85

I'm thinking about going back

by Corboy101 in

jw
friends

i have been out for 22 years.i was raised as a jehovahs witness.

i was baptized in 1986 but soon after left the religion.

theres a whole lot to the reasons why i left, but i left.

1009

besty
I'm with jeffro on this - in a cult you have to be 100% all in with everything, otherwise you are not a true believer. (and you can't continue to discuss these issues with the leadership - they will give you a pass 1 time, but not if you keep harping on about them)

Now factor in some cognitive dissonance and I can see why you and many others have a shelf on which you store issues for later.

When that shelf gets too heavy, thats the beginning of the end.

In JW theory 'wait on jehovah for increasing light from an imperfect organisation' should counterbalance the heaviest shelf.

Why store the issue 'for later'? What do you want to do with it 'later'? Most things just aren't important enough to make an issue out of it. I don't care very much if Paul was a tentmaker or not (but I find the topic really interesting!). And there many, many of those topics. I think 'sword' in Heb 4:12 is a bad translation (should be scalpel). And 'faith' in Gal. 5:22-23 too (should be reliable). Etc. Etc. I loved discussing these points with some elders. And they had similar points too. But these are non-issues. And heck, even 1914 didn't bother me much.

Now, when you have a problem with major doctrines, it is indeed another story. There the 'wait on Jehovah' plays a role. As well as the statement that the apostles too didn't understand everything. But yes, there comes a point where one can draw the conclusion that this isn't the true religion.

85

I'm thinking about going back

by Corboy101 in

jw
friends

i have been out for 22 years.i was raised as a jehovahs witness.

i was baptized in 1986 but soon after left the religion.

theres a whole lot to the reasons why i left, but i left.

1009

Jeffro
You've only confirmed my point. If someone cares about doctrine, they - by necessity - can't just disregard the ones they don't like. If they can simply disagree with some doctrines and continue as members, then they don't really care about doctrine. And in both cases, unless they are uninformed, they don't really care about truth if they remain JWs.

No, you are missing my point. I cared much about doctrines, but I made for myself a difference between major and minor doctrines, and I did agree with the (in my eyes) important ones.

No reply from Corboy ? I am a suspiscious old fart, but he could be wishing to get us to be as vitriolic as possible about the WT so as to show how "bitter" we Apostates are.

Indeed, it was his one and only post. But you guys indeed turned up to be very bitter.

85

I'm thinking about going back

by Corboy101 in

jw
friends

i have been out for 22 years.i was raised as a jehovahs witness.

i was baptized in 1986 but soon after left the religion.

theres a whole lot to the reasons why i left, but i left.

1009

Jeffro
One JW doctrine is that you can't just 'pick and choose' which doctrines you like. So if you want the option of choosing JWs on the basis of just a few JW doctrines, then JWs isn't the religion for you.

I disagree. Officially you are right, ofcourse. But that's one of the doctrines with which I disagreed and which was not very important to me. So, I was a happy witness by not acceptating all the teachings. Just don't talk about it to loudly.

Actually I think that most JW have a problem with one or more of the official teachings. How many do masturbate, with a clear conscience? How many think they well remarry their spouses in the New World? How many visit JWN? I think a lot of them.

85

I'm thinking about going back

by Corboy101 in

jw
friends

i have been out for 22 years.i was raised as a jehovahs witness.

i was baptized in 1986 but soon after left the religion.

theres a whole lot to the reasons why i left, but i left.

1009

My goodness, what a bunch of negativity. One of you ever refers to a book called ' Freedom of Mind'. Corboy101 too has the freedom to choose whatever religion he wants, and he apparently DID see some of them. So if he wants to go back: let him go back! Without any judgment on your part. Even on this board h ate-speech and i nciting hatred on the basis of religion are forbidden.

I have totally lost my faith in God. But I agree with Corboy10 that he should primarily focus on doctrines, because all people make mistakes. In my opinion most JW are just dumb, passive followers, incapable to study the Bible themselves. But all the JW I knew (even if I did not like some (most?) of them), were sincere.

I still think the JW are right involving doctrines like f.e. the trinity, the mortality of the soul and pagan holidays. Whether Paul was a tentmaker or not, whether christians should use a Metonic cycle to calculate the date of the Memorial... for me those are minor details. During my years as an active JW I found many of those minors points in which I disagreed with the WTG. I didn't care. And I loved discussing them with some elders who had a similar attitude. But some other doctrines are more important, and it is up to Corboy10 to take a position in those.

So my advice to Corboy10: make a list with doctrines. Which doctrines are (according to you!) important, and which less important? With which doctrines do you agree, and with which do you disagree? If there are any important doctrines with which you do not agree: can you subject yourself to the authority of those who take the lead ? As long as you can, you should go for it.

Corboy10, I wish you all the best in whatever you choose to do.

22

The most important day of the year. Sometimes. Sort of.

by Jeffro in

for jehovah's witnesses, the "most important day of the year" is supposed to be the 'memorial'.

this 'sacred' event is to be held after sunset on nisan 14. except most of the time, it isn't.. as 'explained' in the watchtower, 1 february 1976, page 73, the "governing body" (not capitalised at the time) takes it upon itself to 'determine' the 'actual' date of nisan 14. they claimed in the article that the 'modern' date for the start of nisan in the hebrew calendar is calculated differently to the ancient calculation.

however, that's not actually the case.. the actual calendation for determining the start of nisan was (since at least the neo-babylonian period) and is based on the metonic cycle - a sequence that repeats every 19 years.. in the metonic cycle, the 3rd, 6th, 8th, 11th, 14th, 17th and 19th years have an extra (thirteenth) month (adar ii, or veadar).

1009

The 'brothers' simply do not use the 'Metonic cycle'. According to Insight that system started about 500 B.C.

Therefore they use the date of the equinox (14th day after a visible new moon that is closest to the equinox). They probably reason that the moon that God created is more important than a human calender.

What I always considered a weird practice. Imagen that the sunset is about 7:30 pm. So the elders gather and choose 7:00 to start the Memorial. But Jesus probably started his Last Supper a lot later, they finished after midnight. And the next morning or so he died. And that day is hardly marked in a JW-calendar...