in the english language "god" is an odd alienated word.
it is an anglican word that millions of people take to be the name of a specific god.
but really, the hebrew words eloah/elohim/el etc.
Undisfellowshipped,
You are quit mistaken if you think God's people refuse to be bowed to/worshipped in the Bible. That happens a number of times, I can show you verses later. But context again, when forinstance God is in a vision, God is to be bowed to / worshipped. Notice that I say bowed to / worshipped. The difference is in fact man made, as the Bible uses the same words.
God Bless
in the english language "god" is an odd alienated word.
it is an anglican word that millions of people take to be the name of a specific god.
but really, the hebrew words eloah/elohim/el etc.
Undisfellowshipped,
I will comment this oon.
God Bless
Edited by - Anastasis on 11 October 2002 3:34:47
i'm not a jehovahs witness...i dont know what i am.
when i was younger and my parents were divorced, i celibrated different religions with each family, attending many differnet churches, from methodist, to catholic, to christian and so on.
as a result, i was unable to seperate the beliefs of each religion and not really understand what i believed in and where i belonged.
UnDisfellowshipped,
First your verses from Revelations. First of all, let us eliminate the addition of "Alpha and Omega" in Rev. 1:11. Christ can be called all God is called, as he has become his namebearer (GIVEN the name above all Phil. 2:9), but we dont need to make up more than we have. Notice in 1:17-18 and 2:8 that Jesus is said to have been dead. God obviously can't die, nor can he be the firstborn of the dead (Col. 1:18). Christ was truly dead and shared Adamic condemnation as it said that dead had dominion over him (Rom. 6:9), made in all things like his brethern, that he could make the devil/sin powerless (Heb. 2:17).
Remaining problem may be Rev. 22:13, 16. God is certainly not the root and offspring of David. Some see this as God speaking through Jesus' mouth just like God speaks through Jeremiah's mouth in Jeremiah 1:8-9 etc. Personally, I don't see why Jesus should be speaking in verse 13. Why would he present himself in verse 16 then and.. in that same chapter we also have John and an angel speaking. Clearly, in the Bible, it's not that important which temple God speaks through, he declares his will whether speaking to the mind of people or through prophets or angels.
Psalms 136:1-3, 1st Timothy 6:14-16, Revelation 17:14 and Revelation 19:16. I sense the problem here is that you once again assign a title to be a name.
Ezekiel 26:7 For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will bring upon Tyrus Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, a king of kings, from the north, with horses, and with chariots, and with horsemen, and companies, and much people. (KJV)
Ezekiel 26:7 For thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Behold, I will bring upon Tyre Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, king of kings, from the north, with horses, and with chariots, and with horsemen, and a company, and much people (ASV)
It is up the translator whether he will put a "a" before a title. God surely calls Nebuchadrezzar king of kings as he also calls him God, because he was indeed a very mighty man. As we see from Phil. 2:9 Jesus can use all titles God holds, also titles greater than king of kings.
Jeremiah 23:5-6. A name once more. Look up a Jewish King called Jehu. That means "Jehovah is he". So that is not worth much for a trinitarian prooftext, but it gives light to Micah 5:4; "He will reign in the name of YHWH, his God".
I miss yoir point about Zecheriah 3:1-2 other than the fact that the angel voices the rebuke of Satan.
John 1 may be a issue on its own. The word of God is often personified in the OT. Forinstance we have Isa. 55:11 where the Word of God comes out of God's mouth and carry out a task for him. God's word became flesh (verse 14), in Genesis 1 God creates by speaking. John 1 is a close personification of Jesus' divine work like "I am the life and resurrrection" (John 11:25). The Bible declares that Jesus was born in Bethelem and thus I don't find Jesus in existence in the OT.
John 20:28 shows Thomas declaring Jesus to be his Lord and mighty one. He is after all the Son of God. The difficulty here of cause is that people take God to be a name, which it is not. However, none come to the Father without the mediator (1 Tim. 2:5) and then to Thomas, Jesus was surely in that moment as great as God, as he was God's temple. Again, context.
Ps. 45:7-8 I have already spoken of. Here we have a mighty one that has a mighty one himself. Thus one is more mighty than the other. The Psalm is originally written to Solomon, but Hebrews applies it to Christ to show his Davidic royal line. Notice also that it is the throne that is eternal.
Hebrews 1 is interesting. Notice that it says Jesus became higher than angels (verse 4) thus he was lower than angels before (Heb. 2:7). The sole problem Hebrews 1 gives is that Heb. 1:10-12 pr. tradition is understood to be applied to the Son, but it quotes Ps. 102 where a believer addresses YHWH while Heb. 1:5, 8-9 (verse 8-9 quotes Ps. 45:6-7) addresses the Son of David, which God speaks to. We also miss an "an again to the Son", instead we get "and thou Lord / LORD", which indicates that the writer simply addresses God. Then in verse 13 he takes on the subject of what God says once again. That way we get the same impression as in 1 Tim. 1:12-17, Paul praises Jesus and then ends with praising the God of all.
Isaiah 7:14, Matt. 1:23. Read about what Jehu means once again. Add with this;
2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
God was in Christ, Christ was/will again at his 2nd coming be God's walking temple.
Isaiah 9-10. What is the difference between returning to Jesus and to God? Does Jesus run his own business? No. Besides Isa. 9:6 was originally applied to Hezekiah. Both Hezekiah (a king that was a blessing replacing his evil father), Jesus and God can be called brave mighty ones, which is much better rendering than the clumbsy Mighty God (mighty one). Tjeck out a concordance on this verse.
1 Timothy 3:16, the addition of "God" is spurious yet it is true as such, since Jesus manifested God. "He that has seen the Father, has seen me".
The renderings of Titus 2:13, 2nd Peter 1:1, Acts 20:28, Jude 1:4 are all manipulated. Tjeck the footnote to each of this verses, they all offer "alternative" renderings, which doesnt seem to support what this seems to support. As for Acts 20:28 I would say though that the blood of Christ is the blood of God, God himself does as he is Spirit not have any human blood.
Col 1-2. It is a strange rendering of 1:19 you have. See the KJV;
Colossians 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
Your rendering took out Father, which I find fascinating. Here you got the explenation on 2:9 too, It pleased God to give all authority to Christ, excluded his own as logic says and 1 Cor. 15:27 also says. A lot more can be said, Christ is called an image and the firstborn of the dead, all indicating that he was made.
Rev. 4. Notice the Lamb is not sitting on that throne. The lamb is duely worshipped together with God in chapter 5, even far more than David was worshipped along with God in 1 Chron. 29:20.
If you want to discuss further, shorten things down. Im not into marathon discussions and it seems like Im the one that is to do the work here while you just spam verses.
God Bless
Edited by - Anastasis on 10 October 2002 17:49:38
here's a little study i did during the days of interest: .
rutherford claimed that the 144000 were the christ, russel did to, wt today believes the same thing.
watchtower exulting their 14000 to same level christ: .
Well Brummie,
The Bible clearly states that the saints will 1) reign with Christ, 2) share Christ's nature 3) be glorified with Christ 4) be worshipped as Christ is worshipped.
1) Rev. 20:4
2) Phil. 3:21, 1 John 3:2
3) 2 Thess. 1:7
4) Rev. 3:9
But but.. your posts seems to forget that the saints will be immortals and sinless. Thus they can't be selfish, they are fully members on Christ and children of God. Just as the heavenly angels and Jesus, they simply can't sin. From a human wordly view you might call them God's robots, but in reality they are assimiliated with the Creator, in harmony and can not do what Adam did, "Death is swallowed up in victory" (1 Cor. 15:54). Some use the term "temples" of Jesus and the heavenly angels. They represent God, they can't sin.
God Bless
ok...i admit...i forgot a lot!
been out for a least 25 years!.
but when visiting my jw mother in law last weekend..she kept emphasizing that jesus now knows when armageddon is going to start!.
ozziepost,
It seems quit reasonable that the one that can give Jesus all authority in fact is the one that really has all authority and thus knows things Jesus doesn't. The wellknown statement of Matt. 24 is clear; only the Father knows that time. Anyway "all" hardly ever mean all in the modern sense. Very easyb to show; all things will be reconciled in Christ (Col. 1:20). The explenation is of cause all things that is in existence on the final day as you dont count your dead cattle either. "As all die in Adam, all will be made alive in Christ" (1 Cor. 15:20). That is obviously only the saints, the whole topic of that chapter. In Luke (chapter 2 as I remember) "all the world" is to be counted by the Emperor's command. Again that is the Roman empire. The Bble is a easy victim for out of context quoting. All thngs must be studied with a rational sober mind.
God Bless
in the english language "god" is an odd alienated word.
it is an anglican word that millions of people take to be the name of a specific god.
but really, the hebrew words eloah/elohim/el etc.
Hi Gopher,
You are perfectly right.It is a good way to open the discussion though, as atleast 95% of the standard trinitarian arguments are no arguments at all. The issue of "worship" is another one. I remember a person that made a great point of the disciples worshipping Jesus on their knees and touching his feet until I showed that the same was done to Elijah or Elisa. Again, "worship" means something different today and milder words are used by the translators foristance when Abraham "kneels" before the men of a tribe.
Jesus certainly manifested God but the whole trinity is based on the absurd claim they dont even know themselves, that God took on human flesh.
God Bless
the reason no one knows the date or time of 'the end' - and that no one needs to know - is because being a christian is about how you live!
right now and today.
not about protecting yourself from dying or figuring out unknowable things or making sure you sneak in under the wire.
The views presented here are contrast to the apostles views. They surely lived in expectation and hoped to keep themselves blameless unto the return of their Lord, where they would all get their reward according to what they had done "in the body". So JWs lack spirituality, christendom lacks true Christianity.
God Bless
in the english language "god" is an odd alienated word.
it is an anglican word that millions of people take to be the name of a specific god.
but really, the hebrew words eloah/elohim/el etc.
In the English language "God" is an odd alienated word. It is an anglican word that millions of people take to be the name of a specific god. But really, the Hebrew words Eloah/Elohim/El etc. means might, mighty one or mighty ones. So a human being can most certainly be God, ie. be mighty. A fine example is found in Ezekiel 31:11 where King Nebucadnezar is called God of the heathens by God himself. This is hidden by most translaters that renders it "mighty one" for once. But the Hebrew word here is "El" and that is the exact same word used in Isaiah 43:10 where "God" (well what can I do..? hard to change such a tradition) tells us that He is the only El aswell as the only Saviour in verse 11, which is perfectly true, Jesus needed to be saved and needed God (Heb. 5:7). Likewise Solomon is called God (mighty one) in Ps. 45:7 and Hezekiah Mighty God (rather brave/valiant mighty one) in Isa. 9:6. Angels are called Gods in Ps. 8:5 (compare to Heb. 2:7).
Being mighty is really something very difficult to measure. To an ancient person the argument of trinitarians arguing that there is only one God in all contexts, wouldnt put anything put a smile on his face. The problem is made by mens tradition and theology, not by the Bible that always require of its readers to study it hard and be careful what to conclude. We humans accept a human being is mighty and so much more is a heavenly angel, yet he is not to God. YHWH is the supreme God, he is also the only "real/true" God. That is the exact point of Jesus in John 17:3 where He addresses God as the only true God. The only real powerful one or as David simply puts it in Ps. 36:9, God owns the source of Life. He has that power than made it possible for Him to give Jesus life in himself (John 5:26).
Hope this solves the problem.
God Bless
i'm not a jehovahs witness...i dont know what i am.
when i was younger and my parents were divorced, i celibrated different religions with each family, attending many differnet churches, from methodist, to catholic, to christian and so on.
as a result, i was unable to seperate the beliefs of each religion and not really understand what i believed in and where i belonged.
Hi UnDisfellowshipped,
I hard like to go a bit further with you. You seem to do the same thing as the JWs, take Scriptures out of context. That's a devestating thing to do. Scriptures must be read rationally and with a sober mind. We need to collect data and conclude. Which mighty ones do you think YHWH speaks of in that verse you quote? His angels? No. The mighty ones people serve instead of God? Most certainly, men and piles of wood or stone. Jesus and the angels on the other hand, work pro God. Notice the statement in 2 Cor. 5:17; "God (one being) was in Christ (another being, a man of flesh and blood) reconciling the world". Through his Spirit presence, he was inside Christ.
God Bless
i'm not a jehovahs witness...i dont know what i am.
when i was younger and my parents were divorced, i celibrated different religions with each family, attending many differnet churches, from methodist, to catholic, to christian and so on.
as a result, i was unable to seperate the beliefs of each religion and not really understand what i believed in and where i belonged.
Hi UnDisfellowshipped,
In the English language "God" is an odd alienated word. It is an anglican word that millions of people take to be the name of a specific god. But really, the Hebrew words Eloah/Elohim/El etc. means might, mighty one or mighty ones. So a human being can most certainly be God, ie. be mighty. A fine example is found in Ezekiel 31:11 where King Nebucadnezar is called God of the heathens by God himself. This is hidden by most translaters that renders it "mighty one" for once. But the Hebrew word here is "El" and that is the exact same word used in Isaiah 43:10 where "God" (well what can I do..? hard to change such a tradition) tells us that He is the only El aswell as the only Saviour in verse 11, which is perfectly true, Jesus needed to be saved and needed God (Heb. 5:7). Likewise Solomon is called God (mighty one) in Ps. 45:7 and Hezekiah Mighty God (rather brave/valiant mighty one) in Isa. 9:6. Angels are called Gods in Ps. 8:5 (compare to Heb. 2:7).
Being mighty is really something very difficult to measure. To an ancient person the argument of trinitarians arguing that there is only one God in all contexts, wouldnt put anything put a smile on his face. The problem is made by mens tradition and theology, not by the Bible that always require of its readers to study it hard and be careful what to conclude. We humans accept a human being is mighty and so much more is a heavenly angel, yet he is not to God. YHWH is the supreme God, he is also the only "real/true" God. That is the exact point of Jesus in John 17:3 where He addresses God as the only true God. The only real powerful one or as David simply puts it in Ps. 36:9, God owns the source of Life. He has that power than made it possible for Him to give Jesus life in himself (John 5:26).
Hope this solves the problem.
God Bless
Edited by - Anastasis on 9 October 2002 13:9:35
