Posts by fjtoth

396

Who is Jesus? Is he God?

by BelieverInJesus in

i live in memphis.

months ago, i had some jw's come by and talk with me.

i'm a believer in the holy bible.

fjtoth

It seems obvious that there is no one home. I can't even see a light on!

Isn't that what someone would say who sadly has had no experience with answered prayer?

I'm saying that the Trinity backing is not as solid as many would choose to believe.

Amen! Nowhere does the Bible force the conclusion that God is three persons in one. There is far too much uncertainty and emotionalism attached to this topic, as well as a lot of reading into what a text says rather than letting it speak for itself.

It turns me off when I hear that persons are not Christians if they don't believe in the Trinity. What about Luke who penned more than any other inspired writer of the New Testament and who devoted not a single word to the effect that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are God? What about Matthew, Mark, James and Jude? If some see the Trinity in the writings of John and Paul, let that be their faith. But why must they try to impose their convictions on others who are not so convinced? The test should be answers to prayer, not legislation from a church or another sinful human.

"Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand." (Romans 14:4)

"There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy; but who are you who judge your neighbor?" (James 4:12)

20

Eisenhower used WT Bible when sworn into office

by Bonnie_Clyde in

jw
friends

joel rosenburg was on tv a few minutes ago talking about eisenhower's background.

he mentioned that his father left the religion after the end of the world did not happen in 1914 and that his mother continued.

then he mentioned that when he was sworn into office, he had his hands on a bible published by jehovah's witnesses.

fjtoth

According to an article by Gerald Bergman in the Journal of American & Comparative Cultures, there is a photo in the London Daily News of February 2, 1957 (page 1) that shows Eisenhower being sworn in with his hand on the American Standard Version that his mother gave him. The article is called "The Influence of Religion on President Eisenhower's Upbringing," and it appears in Volume 23 (Winter -2000), Page 89.

I remember that we used the ASV almost entirely at the meetings until the releases of the NWT. The Society first began publishing the ASV in 1944. It had a light brown cover and cost a dollar. But they also made available a larger edition at higher cost with extensive notes, indexes and maps. It was published by Thomas Nelson & Sons. It was quite a Bible, and I wish I still had my copy. It began falling apart about 3 years ago, and I got rid of it. (Sigh!)

Frank

54

What ever happened to homosexual GB member Leo Greeenlees, is he dead now?

by chiddy in

jw
friends

fjtoth

Alan,

You make a strong case, and all I can say is that you are probably right, both sides having been heard. If Greenlees was a pedophile he certainly deserves the bad name that he now has. I look back on all this with mixed emotions. I've seen too many guilty persons punished by a mere slap on the wrist, and I've seen too many persons wrongly accused by WT elders when the evidence just was not there.

Thanks.

Frank

54

What ever happened to homosexual GB member Leo Greeenlees, is he dead now?

by chiddy in

jw
friends

fjtoth

Alan,

I won't deny what you're saying, but I still have some reservations. I wonder how "loyal" the WT officials were trying to be. When I was at Bethel, persons high up in the Service and Writing Departments (and in the Bethel Office) spoke the party line when I actually knew better and when I was aware that they were trying to hide something in doing so. Persons who were always honest with me in normal matters took on an air of condescension when I brought up something they thought I had no business asking about. And that was true of persons in lesser station as well. Knowing Greenlees as well as I did, including his Scottish temperament and lack of patience sometimes with persons who mishandled the Bible, I'm prone to give him the benefit of the doubt and to suspect that he was dismissed for a reason other than what most of us have heard. I know I could be wrong, but I'd rather err on the side of caution instead of accusing him when all the facts are actually not out there in the open.

That's quite different from the reaction one would get with respect to someone who has had no accusations, such as, say, Karl Klein, for whom the response would likely be "that's preposterous".

I'm not sure what you mean about Klein. I was party to a conversation once where Knorr exclaimed about Karl that "the man is a nut. The only reason we keep him is he's a good writer." On another occasion when I was driving Klein and his wife to the airport, Klein complained for most of the trip that the only person standing in the way of good governing body decisions was Knorr, and he gave several examples. That was stuff I wasn't supposed to hear, but it illustrates how much animosity existed between members of the governing body at times. On the other hand, most Bethelites were unaware of this and usually spoke in glowing terms about GB members, except when a GB member happened to get dismissed. Then it was another story. They could find nothing good to say about the person, and that was certainly true with respect to Greenlees.

Frank

54

What ever happened to homosexual GB member Leo Greeenlees, is he dead now?

by chiddy in

jw
friends

fjtoth

Mary and CaptainSchmideo,

There truly is another side of the picture:

Since leaving JWs, some absolutely ridiculous rumors have been spread about me personally for the purpose of making the WT Society look good. The worse I look, the better the Society looks for getting rid of me. So this sort of thing works two ways. I believe it’s quite possible that rumors could have been invented concerning Greenlees to make the other members of the GB look good. At the time he was dismissed, not everybody at Bethel held the GB in high esteem. There was an undercurrent of feeling that a lot of unfairness was going on. Greenlees was the type to go to bat for the little guy. And I remember very well the woman I mentioned above who did her best to spread the story that Greenlees was immoral. She was notorious for buttering up and snuggling up to GB members and their wives.

Due to the Society’s subtle skill at destroying people’s reputations where it suits their purpose, even my own mother, brother and sister are convinced that the malicious rumors about me are true. I, for one, have no problem in understanding why someone like Greenlees has had his name dragged through the mud, even though I remember him as decent, devout, kind and hard-working above average among the JWs I have known.

For all we know, Greenlees could have been dismissed for being too much of a freethinker. I noticed quite often that in private he didn't subscribe to some of the notions presented by other member of the GB.

I’m not saying it was impossible for him to do wrong, even great wrong. My question is, how do we know for sure? Is he being judged according to the facts or according to malicious gossip?

Frank

54

What ever happened to homosexual GB member Leo Greeenlees, is he dead now?

by chiddy in

jw
friends

fjtoth

There is another incident of a young bethelite saying that Greenless liked to have sex with boys "in their butt". The story is in one of sevenofsix's threads that are resurfacing right now.

I have to tell you that this story just doesn't add up. As resentful as many become for not receiving promotions they feel are due to them, there is an eagerness to squeal on those in high position who make a mistep in one way or another. In a community as close-knit as Bethel, it would require something like a blood conspiracy to hide the fact that a GB member was having sex with boys.

If the story is true, then let it be heard. But is it really true, or is it the invention of somebody who has absolutely no knowledge of the facts and is merely guessing?

Pedophiles should be punished to the full extent of the law, but so should persons who attempt to destroy a specific person's reputation by means of slander and gossip.

Frank

54

What ever happened to homosexual GB member Leo Greeenlees, is he dead now?

by chiddy in

jw
friends

fjtoth

CaptainSchmideo,

Regardless of who took Greenlees to the airport, he did not leave Bethel in complete disgrace. At one of the following summer's district conventions, he was seen in the company of GB members and others from Brooklyn. Bad as the WT Society is, I really doubt Greenlees would have been appointed as a Special Pioneer or in any other capacity as a WT representative if he was demoted for homosexual tendencies or for being a pedophile.

Again, I tend to doubt that the Society would have made the ridiculous arrangement of having someone with animosity toward Greenlees take him to the airport. As I see it, whoever took him to the airport must have been on friendly terms with him, perhaps even as a special friend. I was occasionally a chauffer for a few members of the GB, Greenlees being one of them, and I was sometimes passed by because the GB member had made prior arrangments with another personal friend.

Frank

54

What ever happened to homosexual GB member Leo Greeenlees, is he dead now?

by chiddy in

jw
friends

fjtoth

I think it only fair to mention that I knew Leo Greenlees, and I would hesitate to call him homosexual or a pedophile. He's been accused by some, and perhaps appearances are suspicious, but I'm inclined to feel a man is innocent until proven guilty. Leo was one of my bosses at Bethel, and I found him to be more principled and Bible-oriented than most Governing Body members. I will always appreciate the fact that he came to my defense when a few other GB members were making my life miserable at Bethel due to petty politics.

When Leo left Bethel, there were rumors, but I really doubt anyone among the Bethel rank and file knew the real reason(s). I know I didn't, and I was daily in touch with several insiders who seemed to know the GB best. One woman who was a real busybody tried to put two and two together by connecting Leo with the reputations of a relative whom she thought was an odd-ball and a former friend whose morals were questionable. I think the pedophile accusation is a direct result of her gadding about and trying to make herself and her husband look like close friends of GB members.

I could be completely mistaken, but I hesitate to be guided by mere hearsay and to put the label of "homosexual" and/or "pedophile" on a person now dead who may have been identified falsely.

Frank

18

How Come So Many Bethelites Leave The Organization

by ilovemusik in

hello i'm new here but i've been reading the things on this db for quite some time.

i am still an active witness, but i've been having doubts for quite sometime and have been looking into the background of the organization, very shocked at what i'm finding.

since i lived next to headquarters and had a lot of bethelites in my congregation, i was shock to learn (not only on this db) that so many bethelites who leave bethel also end up leaving the organization.

fjtoth

I was at Bethel for 36 years. My reasons for leaving JWs as well as Bethel are given on my website at http://formerjw.homestead.com.

Frank

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

fjtoth

I miss Frank too. Any way we can get him and his superior wit back on this forum?
The other Frank (Frank75)

Thanks, Frank75, for the compliment. Since my last post my computer has been in storage because I'm in the process of moving from one apartment while looking for another. My boss gave me permission to make this reply on our office computer. With your talent (and that of some others in this thread), the "superior wit" continues. Keep up the good work!

Frank