Posts by logansrun

24

Does anyone know a good exit counselor in the Chicago area?

by Check_Your_Premises in

does anyone have any experience using exit counselors?

logansrun

I've heard it said that many so-called "exit counselors" do just as much harm as good. Some have gone so far as to abduct the alleged "cult" member forcibly and practically brainwash them in order to de-brainwash them. Many are on an anti-cult vendetta that is, itself, rather cult-like.

I don't see an "exit counselor" doing much good to a JW wavering in the faith. I certainly don't seem them doing any good to a JW that doesn't want to leave the fold.

Bradley

PS...the so-called WHY-1914 "helpline" can do some good, but is unquestionably from a born-again Christian perspective. When I left the JWs about three years ago I called the "helpline" and talked to a couple nice, but highly evangelical, folks who offered some good advice. One woman -- not Marilyn -- told me that she believes in modern-day miracles and said that she knows a pastor who raised someone from the dead. I'm not kidding. It was very "Twilight-zone-ish" and, if I didn't know any better, felt that the woman wasn't playing with a full deck.

23

JW's and Material Love

by JH in

jw
friends

1 john 2:15

15 do not be loving either the world or the things in the world.

if anyone loves the world, the love of the father is not in him; 16 because everything in the world?the desire of the flesh and the desire of the eyes and the showy display of one?s means of life?does not originate with the father, but originates with the world.

logansrun

Well, JH, unless you are able to get into the Witnesses minds and hearts to understand their subjective feeling about those material possesions, your point is moot.

Bradley

40

Apostates' Idealised Image of their Time as a Witness

by slimboyfat in

jw
friends

i know some apostates become bitter and can see nothing good in their time spent as witnesses, but i am not talking about that kind of apostate.

i am talking about the other kind of apostate who tends to idealise certain aspects of their time in the witnesses.

what motivates such sentiments i wonder?

logansrun

Ab,

It's a conundrum. If someone wishes to denigrate someone or make them look like a fool they can label them as a fool. This is thought, correctly by some, as being unfair. On the other hand, if someone consistently behaves in a foolish manner and spouts foolish ideas and they are therefore labeled as a fool this is thought to be unfair.

Sometimes labels are untrue and totally unnecessary. On the other hand, sometimes labels are a pretty good description. (Although I prefer to label behaviors, not people) Are some apostates bitter over their treatment at the hands of the Evil Watchtower? I think so. Of course, they may have reason to be. But, from a pragmatic point of view, it doesn't seem to do much good. I prefer equanimity over bitterness any day.

Not a big point, though. I can live in a label-less world just as well.

B.

92

Will reading CoC automatically make me want to leave WTS?

by ljwtiamb in

since i am still active (somewhat).

i have not read the book and you know what the org says about it.

will crisis of conscience surely send me into a tailspin?

logansrun

I read Crisis of Conscience at a Starbucks one day near a library about an hour and a half away from my congregation's territory. (I wanted to stay far enough away, you know).

I still remember the nervous feeling I had handing over my library card to check it out. Would Jehovah strike me down right there? Would his spirit cause an elder to just "happen" upon me in my initial act of outward faithlessness?

Well, I read that book in one day -- 9 o'clock in the morning became 5'o'clock in the afternoon in what seemed like a matter of moments. It's amazing how fast one can read when issues of such personal and universal importance are at stake. The emotions I felt were mixed. One part of me -- which already was seriously doubting the JWs and the Bible -- felt a sense of insight into matters I had only very vague notions of, such as what the GB meetings are like. Another part of me, though, thought "Well, that's not that bad." Honestly, I don't see how CoC is that incredibly shocking -- at least from a moral standpoint -- in comparison to the "skeletons in the closet" of other religions. Franz did not talk much about any personal failings of members of the GB (I felt he could have, but it was wise on his part not to get personal), and I got the impression that the GB members were almost lost in a sea of eschatelogical expectation and beaurocratic inertia. I didn't feel -- and don't feel to this day -- that the GB members are "heartless", only very, very misled.

All in all CoC is a fascinating inside look into the tragic politics of a minor religious sect. There's no sex in it so it won't be made into a movie any time soon.

Bradley

PS....Biblical criticism and evolution did much more for curing me of my Watchtower beliefs than did Ray Franz, btw.

11

Oh yes, what happened last Saturday?

by logansrun in

jw
friends

well folks, you may recall that i was invited to my sister and her husband's gilead going-away bonanza last saturday.

elders would be there.

my world would be rocked from it's stable position of "inactive"!

logansrun

Well folks, you may recall that I was invited to my sister and her husband's Gilead going-away bonanza last Saturday. Elders would be there. My world would be rocked from it's stable position of "inactive"! Right?

Wrong. Although two elders from my previous hall were there -- and the former Circuite Overseer for that congregation! -- nobody said anything that hinted at a committee or even tea and cookies. I'm kind of disappointed! Do they not love me enough to rescue me from the clutches of Satan and Ray Franz (who, of course, left the organization to start his own religion and make millions)? No!

All went well. Nice to see my sister one last time before she gets malaria in some God-forsaken land. (Kidding..I hope). A couple sisters did a double-take at me. They were like dear caught in the headlights. I could see their wheels turning, "Wait, is he DFd or...um?" Gave me a hug and told me how good it is to see me. "A pleasant surprise!" said one. "Great! Could you get me a beer?" I replied.

The evening ended without nary a word of my "status." Just goes to show you the essence of Zen, which can be summed up in two words: Not always so.

Bradley

40

Apostates' Idealised Image of their Time as a Witness

by slimboyfat in

jw
friends

i know some apostates become bitter and can see nothing good in their time spent as witnesses, but i am not talking about that kind of apostate.

i am talking about the other kind of apostate who tends to idealise certain aspects of their time in the witnesses.

what motivates such sentiments i wonder?

logansrun

So, Abaddon, when is it proper to use a "label" to describe someone or their behavior? Or is it ever? (This, in reference to your comment on the use of the word "bitter").

B.

40

Apostates' Idealised Image of their Time as a Witness

by slimboyfat in

jw
friends

i know some apostates become bitter and can see nothing good in their time spent as witnesses, but i am not talking about that kind of apostate.

i am talking about the other kind of apostate who tends to idealise certain aspects of their time in the witnesses.

what motivates such sentiments i wonder?

logansrun

As a general rule, people tend to idealize their past good memories and demonize their past bad memories. "McDonalds burgers used to taste SO much better..." Yeah, right.

It could be that some ex-Witnesses tend to make the Society look worse today than it was in the past, which would validate a conception of the organization "falling apart" (which is exactly opposite of what Witnesses believe...curious). This makes "hard core" apostates feel good, of course.

Honestly, some things might be better today in the organization. There certainly is less condemnation of going to college, even if it is for an associates degree in drafting. This is a HUGE improvement on the past when the very thought of taking a couple credit hours at a community college was the Devil whispering in your ear.

ANY generalization from subjective experience to the greater population of Witnesses or any other group is very suspect. " I hade a bad day in St. Louis, therefore it is a bad city " -- that sort of thing.

"Humans are out of their fucking minds" said psychologist Albert Ellis. Yep.

Bradley

19

Another WTS Misrepresentation from the Creator Book

by AlanF in

here is a good example of the sort of complex misrepresentations that the watchtower society performs.

the 1998 creator book says the following (chap.

" not, "what happened after the origin of the universe?

logansrun

If experts cannot really explain either the origin or the early development of our universe, should we not look elsewhere for an explanation?

If experts cannot really explain either the origin or the early development of Jehovah God, should we not look elsewhere for an explanation?

Bradley

28

Terry Schiavo is Dead

by doodle-v in

.

logansrun

I hate to say it, but would it really surprise anyone if Michael Schiavo gets murdered by some deranged right-winger? I hope I'm wrong.

Sad, but I think it's TIME TO MOVE ON.

Bradley

126

What Was Your Greatest "Privilege" In The Organization?

by minimus in

jw
friends

was it being able to join the theocratic ministry school?

being a regular pioneer?

"handling microphones"?

logansrun

Seriously, though...

I was an MS from 18 to 24, reg. pioneer from 19-24. Gave public talks (I have five outlines still in my possession) both home and away, conducted a book study for about 3 years, had so many CA and DC parts I've lost count, told I'm going to be the "next elder" a billion times...I was a heavy in the making. Then I found out about radiocarbon dating and chucked the whole damn thing.

Oops. My bad.

Bradley