Posts by logansrun

74

Do those that shun us not love us?

by logansrun in

it is a mistake for former jehovah's witnesses to think that just because they are shunned by friends and family, they are no longer loved.

isn't shunning a horrible experience, one borne from twisted psychological reasoning?

mandated shunning from a powerful and misguided religious organization is a great sin against both the person shunned and those who are obliged, yes obliged, to shun them.

logansrun

Gary,

Do you hate Adolph Hitler? How about Saddam Hussein? What actions have you taken against them of late?

Jeannie,

It is so painful to think that people who raised us, or who we grew up with, who tell us they love us, actually don't love us that we make up excuses for them.

It soothes us somehow to say things like, "Oh, they do care. They just can't go against the organization."

Jeannie, I hate to be blunt but you seem extremely ignorant of how susceptible people are to social engineering. When you get a chance, do a "Google" search under "Stanley Milgram" and see what you find. We are not as free as we think. People don't always act in the right way, even if they have good intentions! Look at Thomas Jefferson: He talked of the equality of all men and yet owned slaves. People are bound by many things, including culture. The Witness system is, in a sense, a culture.

Or, "Mom and Dad love me. They just hope that by taking everything that I ever held dear away from me and making me want to die, that I'll lie to myself, God and the organization, whore out my conscience and go back to the cult."

They do this -- shun you, make you "want to die" -- because they don't want you to die...at Armageddon. I think it's totally nuts, but it's as true as a nutty Pentacostal parent railing against their atheist child because they don't want her to be sent to the fires of hell. Give me a break!

74

Do those that shun us not love us?

by logansrun in

it is a mistake for former jehovah's witnesses to think that just because they are shunned by friends and family, they are no longer loved.

isn't shunning a horrible experience, one borne from twisted psychological reasoning?

mandated shunning from a powerful and misguided religious organization is a great sin against both the person shunned and those who are obliged, yes obliged, to shun them.

logansrun

Well Gary, can you hate someone without taking action against them?

B.

74

Do those that shun us not love us?

by logansrun in

it is a mistake for former jehovah's witnesses to think that just because they are shunned by friends and family, they are no longer loved.

isn't shunning a horrible experience, one borne from twisted psychological reasoning?

mandated shunning from a powerful and misguided religious organization is a great sin against both the person shunned and those who are obliged, yes obliged, to shun them.

logansrun

I strongly disagree. Let's take your argument to the limit. A Jehovah's Witness in Atlanta several years back killed his family to ensure they recieved the reserrection hope. Was killing his family a loving thing to do. Probably not, since it is illegal.

Shunning is a form of emotional abuse, since it is intended to hurt the shunned one. Hurting another person is NEVER loving.

I guess those that protect child molesters in the organization are showing love as well by your definition.

Well, let's take your line of reasoing to it's logical conclusion. Does a child feel hurt when their parents punish him for his/her own good in the long run? Yes -- I felt hurt when I was punished in this way when I was a kid. Does that mean my parents did not love me? Nevertheless, I believe shunning is not an appropriate, or even effective, form of showing love for someone else. But, just because someone -- under great pressure to conform! -- performs one unloving act towards you, does not mean that the totality of how they view you is unloving. Bringing the child-molestation issue, or extreme cases like murder,into this discussion is comparing apples to oranges. B.

74

Do those that shun us not love us?

by logansrun in

it is a mistake for former jehovah's witnesses to think that just because they are shunned by friends and family, they are no longer loved.

isn't shunning a horrible experience, one borne from twisted psychological reasoning?

mandated shunning from a powerful and misguided religious organization is a great sin against both the person shunned and those who are obliged, yes obliged, to shun them.

logansrun

I disagree. Love is shown by our works or our actions. Shunning, and action, is not loving. It follows that those who shun do not love or do not know how to love.
At any rate, I'm done with the lot of them. Were they to come back into my life begging for a relationship, I'd tell them to hit the trail. People are accountable for their actions and "I was just following orders" is no excuse for evil behavior.

So, you are telling me that my love for my friend when I shunned him was a false love? And what retribution in red above!

B.

74

Do those that shun us not love us?

by logansrun in

it is a mistake for former jehovah's witnesses to think that just because they are shunned by friends and family, they are no longer loved.

isn't shunning a horrible experience, one borne from twisted psychological reasoning?

mandated shunning from a powerful and misguided religious organization is a great sin against both the person shunned and those who are obliged, yes obliged, to shun them.

logansrun

It is a mistake for former Jehovah's Witnesses to think that just because they are shunned by friends and family, they are no longer loved. How can I say this? Isn't shunning a horrible experience, one borne from twisted psychological reasoning? Yes, it is. Mandated shunning from a powerful and misguided religious organization is a great sin against both the person shunned and those who are obliged, yes obliged, to shun them. Nevertheless, outward actions do not adequately reflect inward longing, and we would be wise to reflect on this fact when considering those that shun us.

When I was twenty years old my best friend was disfellowshipped. I was recently appointed a ministerial servant before this and was making great strides "in the truth." When N---- told me he was going to be disfellowshipped it came as no surprise, for although he was like a brother to me I always recognized him as "spiritually weak." I said my tearful goodbye and encouraged him to make a comeback.

For nearly two years I did not speak to him.

As I look back on this time -- and the year I didn't speak to him when he was disfellowshipped yet again! -- I feel great regret. But I never ever lost my love, my philia, for my brother. I thought of him often during this time of incommunicado and longed for his return. Sometimes I wept for him. But I never spoke with him. My loyalty to what I thought God wanted for me was greater than what I felt was a temporary and necessary punishment for the everlasting benefit of my greatest of friends.

Can you really blame me? I didn't want to shun my friend as much as a parent does not long to spank their child. The reason I want to make this clear is that so often ex-Witnesses feel that just because their family or friends do not speak with them they no longer love them. Not so. Unquestionably, their actions are misguided; I even call it a sin. But a misguided love is a love nonetheless, yes?

I think this is an important recognition to keep in mind if we are to keep a sense of sanity about the weird condition of our relationships with those that shun us. Their actions are not the product of a purely premeditated and free will to hurt us, but the outcome of deeply misguided reasoning, feared punishment and loyalty to an erroneous view of the God of the Universe.

Those that shun us do not necessarily deserve our anger, but our sympathy.

B.

14

Anyone know of Anti-jw tracts that can be downloaded?

by AK - Jeff in

looking for simple messages that will appeal to locals in anti-witness campaign.

or if not downloadable ones - how about tracts that can be ordered from the publisher.. not wanting complicated or pro-christian ones, just something simple to make people not show interest in the 'truth'.. anyone?.

jeff

logansrun

The chances of a JW pedophile knocking on your door are about the same as a pedophile bagging your groceries or teaching your children at school. I'm not saying that all is well in JW-land when it comes to pedophilia, but there certainly is a lot of fear-mongering on the part of many ex-JWs about this matter, and everything having to do with the JWs.

B.

14

Anyone know of Anti-jw tracts that can be downloaded?

by AK - Jeff in

looking for simple messages that will appeal to locals in anti-witness campaign.

or if not downloadable ones - how about tracts that can be ordered from the publisher.. not wanting complicated or pro-christian ones, just something simple to make people not show interest in the 'truth'.. anyone?.

jeff

logansrun

Paper and media campaigns do have some pros, but they have some cons as well. I admire anyone who has the guts to do them.

A rhetorical question: Do people that do this really want to "help" people, or do they just have an ax to grind? Perhaps a little bit of both with an emphasis on the latter, in my opinion.

B.

14

Anyone know of Anti-jw tracts that can be downloaded?

by AK - Jeff in

looking for simple messages that will appeal to locals in anti-witness campaign.

or if not downloadable ones - how about tracts that can be ordered from the publisher.. not wanting complicated or pro-christian ones, just something simple to make people not show interest in the 'truth'.. anyone?.

jeff

logansrun

Again, do you honestly see a lot of families joining the ranks of the evil, heinous Watchtower? I don't. The ones that do could probably use some religion in their life, the more structured the better. Sure, I'd point them to the Mormons since they seem to do more for their people, but the JWs do have an appeal to certain sections of the community, especially those from lower socio-economic strata and those whose lives are out of control due to drugs, drink or generally awful personalities.

B.

10

Theological question: When did God create the Devil if...

by logansrun in

st. augustine speculated that god exists outside of time.

this viewpoint would seem to make sense in our modern understanding of physics since time is dependent upon space; time is not an absolute, and it is not linear.

god, according to augustine and other theologians, sees all of history as one eternal present moment.

logansrun

Running Man,

I am fully aware of the secular, historical/critical approach to Biblical study. My question is more for the believers here. Thanks for the reply, though.

B.

14

Anyone know of Anti-jw tracts that can be downloaded?

by AK - Jeff in

looking for simple messages that will appeal to locals in anti-witness campaign.

or if not downloadable ones - how about tracts that can be ordered from the publisher.. not wanting complicated or pro-christian ones, just something simple to make people not show interest in the 'truth'.. anyone?.

jeff

logansrun

Oh, and if the "campaign" is directed towards the general public all I have to say is this: It's unnecessary. Most people already view JWs as pretty nutty or a nuisance. Those from the public that do convert -- primarily the down-and-out or mentally ill -- might actually benefit from an authoritarian belief system and sense of community, however false it might appear to the better informed.

B.