Posts by RevFrank

66

Is The watchtower Dishonest When It comes to the Trinity?

by RevFrank in

in 1989 the watchtower society published a 32-page booklet entitled "should you believe in the trinity?

" the aim of this publication was to discredit the christian doctrine of the triune nature of god.

the method that the society used to accomplish this goal was to quote from a plethora of resources, both secular and religious, such as dictionaries, encyclopedias, books and historical literature written by individual authors.

RevFrank

Well, to give you more info....I don't follow any religion...nor any creeds....Christ told all to follow Him, so I do..Too many religions tell us that we must follow them or your lost. Let it be the NWT or the Holy Bible.....no where in scripture does Christ tell us to follow any religion. And for the church........we are the church.......not any building or Hall.

peace

66

Is The watchtower Dishonest When It comes to the Trinity?

by RevFrank in

in 1989 the watchtower society published a 32-page booklet entitled "should you believe in the trinity?

" the aim of this publication was to discredit the christian doctrine of the triune nature of god.

the method that the society used to accomplish this goal was to quote from a plethora of resources, both secular and religious, such as dictionaries, encyclopedias, books and historical literature written by individual authors.

RevFrank

Thank you all for your comments. Honesty...you're right on the mark. If it weren't so...we all know the watchtower would run it down to the ground in lawsuits. Moggy Love.....very good on your points.......

Skyman I don't write books....nor do I stand on street corners to grab witnesses to tell them about John 1:1.....I am 55 years old.....And I began to do research ever since I was introduced to the watchtower back in 1972(my in-laws).....My in-laws gave me a blue book called, "The Truth Book." So when I finished chapter 2 called, "Why Is It Wise To Examine Your Religion," I turned the table on my in-laws.(didn't mean too) At the same time I questioned the NWT on John 1:1.....{{{ At that time I ran restaurats}}}}

30 plus years later I've become a thological scholar in latan....hebrew...arabic, and most important greek(koien). Back in the middle 60's I was in seminary to become a catholic priest and learned latan. The rest is history. So you tell me...do I really need to do more research? Koien greek has been a dead dialect for nearly 2,000 years and the translation commettee never thought of that when they created the NWT. Plus no one was even a half way scholar when it was translated.

As my gradfather had a cute quote about it and I apply it to the watchtower........."Don't confuse me with the facts..."

PEACE

66

Is The watchtower Dishonest When It comes to the Trinity?

by RevFrank in

in 1989 the watchtower society published a 32-page booklet entitled "should you believe in the trinity?

" the aim of this publication was to discredit the christian doctrine of the triune nature of god.

the method that the society used to accomplish this goal was to quote from a plethora of resources, both secular and religious, such as dictionaries, encyclopedias, books and historical literature written by individual authors.

RevFrank

In 1989 the Watchtower Society published a 32-page booklet entitled "Should You Believe in the Trinity?" The aim of this publication was to discredit the Christian doctrine of the Triune nature of God.
The method that the Society used to accomplish this goal was to quote from a plethora of resources, both secular and religious, such as dictionaries, encyclopedias, books and historical literature written by individual authors. In fact, on the back page of the October 1, 1990 Watchtower magazine was an advertisement for the Booklet that boasted that its strength was in the multitude of resourceful "evidence" against the Trinity doctrine.

It is true that there is a great abundance of quotes in the Booklet. But what is glaringly absent from the reader is any detailed notation of where these quotes actually came from. It was left up to researchers to delve into the pages of the booklet and locate the original sources of the quotes given. The result of my personal investigation is given below.

After examining the evidence, the reader would be justified in asking himself, "Why would a religious group that claims to be God's organization deliberately misrepresent information in order to disprove a teaching that they consider to be false?"

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p.4 - ENCYCLOPEDIA AMERICANA
Booklet:"the doctrine of the Trinity is considered to be 'beyond the grasp of human reason'."
Source: The complete quote is:
"It is held that ALTHOUGH the doctrine is beyond the grasp of human reason, it is, like many of the formulations of physical science, not contrary to reason, and may be apprehended (though it may not be comprehended) by the human mind."
(So the Encyclopedia is comparing the degrees of mental perception, apprehension vs. comprehension, and does not state that the doctrine is "contrary" to reason - but BEYOND our fullest understanding.)

The Watchtower writers also ignored a statement on the same page of the Encyclopedia that disputes the idea that the Trinity doctrine is pagan. It says:
"It is probably a mistake to assume that the doctrine resulted from the intrusion of Greek metaphysics or philosophy into Christian thought; for the date upon which the doctrine rests, and also its earliest attempts at formulation, are much older than the church's encounter with Greek philosophy."

p.4 - A DICTIONARY OF RELIGIOUS KNOWLEDGE
Booklet: "Precisely what the doctrine is, or precisely how it is to be explained, Trinitarians are not agreed among themselves."
Source: Just prior to this statement the book says:
"It is certain, however, that from the apostolic times they paid worship to Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, addressed to them their prayers, and included them in their doxologies."

and after the quote it states:
"It is not possible for the human intellect to comprehend fully the divine nature. The Bible represents God to us as Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. It represents them as equally entitled to our highest reverence, affection, and allegiance."

p.5 - ILLUSTRATED BIBLE DICTIONARY
Booklet: "The word Trinity is not found in the Bible...It did not find a place formally in the theology of the church till the 4th century."
Source: The Dictionary adds these 3 statements:
(a) "Though it is not a Biblical doctrine in the sense that any formulation of it can be found in the Bible, it can be seen to underlie the revelation of God, implicit in the Old Testament and explicit in the New Testament. By this we mean that though we cannot speak confidently of the revelation of the Trinity in the Old Testament, yet once the substance of the doctrine has been revealed in the New Testament, we can read back many implications of it in the Old Testament."
(b) "But even in the opening pages of the Old Testament we are taught to attribute the evidence and persistence of all things to a threefold source." (Not 3 sources separate)
(c) "By way of contrast it must be remembered that the Old Testament was written before the revelation of the doctrine of the Trinity was clearly given and in the New Testament after it."

p.6 - NEW CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA
Booklet: "The doctrine of the Trinity is not taught in the Old Testament."
Source:
"In the New Testament the oldest evidence is in the Pauline epistles..."
"In many places of the Old Testament, however, expressions are used in which some of the Fathers of the church saw references or foreshadowings of the Trinity."
"...the minds of God's people (Old Testament) were being prepared for the concepts that would be involved in the forthcoming revelation of the doctrine of the Trinity. In the New Testament, the revelation of the truth of the Triune life of God was first made in the New Testament, where the earliest references to it are in the Pauline epistles."
"Since the Son and the Holy Spirit are mentioned on a par with the Father, the passage clearly teaches that they are equally divine with the Father, who is obviously God."
"...they testify, under divine inspiration, in the belief of the Apostolic Church in a doctrine of three persons in one God."

p.6 - EDMUND FORTMANN - "THE TRIUNE GOD"
Booklet: "The Old Testament tells us nothing explicitly or by necessary implication of a triune God who is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit...There is no evidence that any sacred writer even suspected the existence of a [Trinity] within the Godhead..."
Source: Just prior to this statement he says:
"As a Catholic priest and a firm believer in the Triune God...and convinced that the doctrine is a Christian doctrine that did and could originate only from divine revelation, I start the study from the authentic record of divine revelation that is found in the sacred writings of the Old and New Testaments."

p.6 - FORTMANN (Cont.)
Booklet: "Even to see in the Old Testament suggestions or foreshadowings or veiled signs of the trinity of persons is to go beyond the words and intent of the sacred writers."
Source: The statement continues:
"However, these writers definitely do give us the words that the New Testament uses to express the trinity of persons, Father, Son, Word, Wisdom, Spirit. And their way of understanding these words helps us to see how the revelation of God in the New Testament goes beyond the revelation of God in the Old Testament."

p.6 - FORTMANN (Cont.)
Booklet: "The New Testament writers...give us no formal or formulated doctrine of the Trinity, no explicit teaching that in one God there are three co-equal divine persons."
Source: The very next sentence reads:
"But they do give us an elemental trinitarianism, the data from which such a formal doctrine of the Triune God may be formulated."

p.6 - FORTMANN (Cont.) [Notes Traces of Triadic Pattern]
Booklet: "Nowhere do we find any trinitarian doctrine of three distinct subjects of divine life and activity in the same Godhead."
Source: (The sentence right before the Watchtower quote says:
"The clearest expression of this pattern is found in the baptismal formula where Matthew presents the three together as at once a triad and a unity."

CONCLUSION TO FORTMANN'S BOOK:
The Old Testament writers laid the groundwork for the Trinity though they did not teach it explicitly. The doctrine of the Trinity is one of progressive revelation from Old Testament times to New Testament times.

p.6 - NEW ENCYCLOPEDIA BRITTANICA
Booklet: "Neither the word Trinity nor the explicit doctrine appears in the New Testament."
Source: There is a period (.) here while there is actually a comma (,). While the quote is exact, it has been taken out of context. Directly following the statement, the encyclopedia proceeds to document the implicit teaching of the Trinity and quotes Biblical passages where the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are associated together and concludes with:
"Thus the New Testament established the basis for the doctrine of the Trinity."

p.6 - A SHORT HISTORY OF CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE
Booklet: "As far as the New Testament is concerned, one does not find in it an actual doctrine of the Trinity."
Source: However, the article continues on p.38 and further states on p.39:
"In other passages of the New Testament the predicate "God" is without a doubt applied to Christ. Christians expressed their faith that it was not merely some heavenly being which encountered them in Jesus Christ, but God Himself."

p.6 - ORIGIN AND EVOLUTION OF RELIGION (Prof. Hopkins)
Booklet: "To Jesus and Paul the doctrine of the trinity was apparently unknown.....they say nothing about it."
Source: At the (.....) the Watchtower omits the phrase "at any rate" because these words serve to qualify Hopkins' statement somewhat. However, even more important, in the sentence immediately preceding, Hopkins states:
"The beginning of the doctrine of the Trinity appears already in John (c.100 AD.)"

John's gospel would now be dated much earlier by most scholars. So it is clear from this statement then that Hopkins admitted the presence of Trinitarianism in at least some portions of the New Testament.

Return to Home Page and Table of Contents
THE ANTE-NICENE FATHERS
On page 7, under the heading, "What the Ante-Nicene Fathers Taught" the Booklet had this to say about the credentials of these great men:
"The Ante-Nicene Fathers were acknowledged to have been leading religious teachers in the early centuries after Christ's birth. What they taught is of interest."

So it certainly appears that the Society considers the writings of the Fathers to be valid representations of what the early Christian Church believed. What they REALLY taught is of significant interest!

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JUSTIN MARTYR

Booklet Justin Martyr, who died about 165 C.E., called the prehuman Jesus a created angel who is "other than the God who made all things." He said that Jesus was inferior to God and "never did anything except what the Creator willed him to do and say."
[Notice that the words a created angel and inferior to God are not in quotation marks. This is because they are Watchtower statements and NOT found in any of Justin's writings.]
What Justin Martyr really said about the Deity of Christ and the Trinity -
SourcesFirst Apology; Dialogue with Trypho

Quotes:
"The Father of the universe has a Son, who also being the first begotten Word of God, is even God." - First Apology ch. 63

"Christ is called both God and Lord of hosts." - Dialogue with Trypho ch. 36

"Moreover, in the diapsalm of the forty-sixth Psalm, reference is thus made to Christ: 'God went up with a shout, the Lord with the sound of a trumpet." Dialogue with Trypho, ch. 37

Trypho to Justin] "...you say that this Christ existed as God before the ages, and that He submitted to be born and become man" - Dialogue with Trypho, ch. 48

Justin quotes Hebrews 1:8 to prove the Deity of Christ. "Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever." - Dialogue with Trypho ch. 56
Notice that the wording of this verse does not read like the twisted rendering found in the New World Translation!]

"Therefore these words testify explicitly that He (Christ) is witnessed to by Him who established these things, as deserving to be worshipped, as God and as Christ." - Dialogue with Trypho, ch. 63

*mnsp; CHAP. LXVI.--HE (JUSTIN) PROVES FROM ISAIAH THAT GOD WAS BORN FROM A VIRGIN. - Chapter Title

"And Trypho said, "You endeavour to prove an incredible and well-nigh impossible thing;[namely], that God endured to be born and become man...some Scriptures which we mention, and which expressly prove that Christ was to suffer, to be worshipped, and [to be called] God, and which I have already recited to you, do refer indeed to Christ," - Dialogue with Trypho, ch. 68

"Now I have proved at length that Christ is called God." - Dialogue with Trypho, ch. 124

Justin stated to Trypho, "For if you had understood what has been written by the prophets, you would not have denied that He was God." - Dialogue with Trypho ch. 126 "The Father of righteousness...and the Son who came from Him...and the prophetic Spirit, we worship and adore." - First Apology ch. 6
compare:
"Only God should be worshipped." - First Apology chs. 16,17

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IRENAUS

Booklet: Irenaeus, who died about 200 C.E., said that the prehuman Jesus had a separate existence from God and was inferior to him. He showed that Jesus is not equal to the "One true and only God," who is "supreme over all, and besides whom there is no other."
[Once again, take careful note where the quotation marks are and where they are NOT.]
Sources: Irenaus Against Heresies [5 books]

Quotes:
(Quoting John 1:1) "...and the Word was God," of course, for that which is begotten of God is God." Book I, ch. 8, section 5

"Christ Jesus is our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King." - Book I, ch. 10, section 1

"But the Son, eternally co-existing with the Father, from of old, from the beginning, always reveals the Father to Angels, Archangels, Powers, Virtues..." - Book II, ch. 30, section 9
[If Jesus pre-existed as an Archangel, then how could he reveal himself to himself?]

"And again when the Son speaks to Moses, He says, "I am come down to deliver this people," (Exodus 3:8 - the burning bush). For it is He who descended and ascended for the salvation of men." - Book III, ch. 6, section 2

"...so that He indeed who made all things can alone, together with His Word, properly be termed God and Lord: but the things which have been made cannot have this term applied to them, neither should they justly assume that appellation which belongs to the Creator." Book III, ch. 8, section 3

"Proofs from the Apostolic writings, that Jesus Christ was one and the same, the only begotten Son of God, perfect God and perfect man." - Book III, ch. 16 [Chapter Title]

"For I have shown from the Scriptures, that no one of the sons of Adam is as to everything, and absolutely, called God, or named Lord. But that He is Himself in His own right, beyond all men who ever lived, God, and Lord, and King Eternal, and the Incarnate Word, proclaimed by all the prophets, the apostles, and by the Spirit Himself,...Now, the Scriptures would not have testified these things of Him, if, like others, He had been a mere man." Book III, ch. 19, section 2

"God, then, was made man, and the Lord did Himself save us, giving us the token of the Virgin." Book III, ch. 21, section 1

"Christ Himself, therefore, together with the Father, is the God of the living, who spake to Moses, and who was also manifested to the fathers." Book IV, ch. 5, section 2

"And for this reason all spake with Christ when He was present [upon earth], and they named Him God." Book IV, ch.6, section 6

"God formed man...it was not angels who made us...angels do not have the power to make an image of God." - Book IV, ch. 20, section 1

"The Word was a blending of God and man...it was foretold that God should be seen by men and converse with them upon the earth." - Book IV, ch. 20, section 4

"The Word, that is, the Son, was always with the Father." - Book IV, ch. 20, section 3

"There is but one God. He created all things. He is the only God, the only Lord, the only Creator." - Book II, ch.1, section 1
compare:
"Christ Jesus, the Son of God, because of His surpassing love for His creation, condescended to be born of the virgin." - Book III, ch. 4, section 2
[Irenaus said that creation belonged to Christ Jesus, thereby making Him the Creator]

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CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA

Booklet: Clement of Alexandria, who died about 215 C.E., called Jesus in his prehuman existence "a creature" but called God "the uncreated and imperishable and only true God." He said that the Son "is next to the only omnipotent Father" but not equal to him.
[The phrases in quotations are much too small to distinguish their locations in the Patristic writings. Regardless, Clement never made the claims that the Society suggests.]
Sources: Exhortation to the Heathens; The Instructor; The Stromata (Miscellanies); Fragments From Cassiodorus; Protrepticus

Quotes:
"The Divine Word, He that is truly most manifest Deity, He that is made equal to the Lord of the universe..." - Exhortation, ch. 10

"The Son of God, who being by equality of substance, one with the Father, is eternal and uncreated." - Fragments, Part III, i,1

"I understand nothing else than the Holy Trinity to be meant; for the third is the Holy Spirit, and the Son is the second, by whom all things were made according to the will of the Father." - Stromata, Book V

"This Son Jesus, the Word of God, is our Instructor. He is God and Creator." - Instructor, ch. 11

"The Word, the Christ, was in God. He alone is both God and man. He is worshipped as the living God. He is truly God most manifest." - Protrepticus, i, x

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TERTULLIAN

Booklet: Tertullian, who died about 230 C.E., taught the supremacy of God. He observed: "The Father is different from the Son (another), as he is greater; as he who begets is different from him who is begotten; he who sends, different from him who is sent." He also said: "There was a time when the Son was not. . . . Before all things, God was alone."
[The Watchtower claims that Tertullian said: "There was a time when the Son was not...Before all things God was alone." In actuality, the phrase: "There was a time when the Son was not" is not from Tertullian himself, but an expression used by a scholar in his writings about Tertulian. (Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol.3, p.629)
The phrase "Before all things God was alone" appears in a totally different work in which Tertullian stresses that the Word existed eternally alongside God and was equal to Him.(Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 3, pp.600-601) The Fathers all believed that the Eternal Word did not become the Son until His incarnation. He was never called the Son before that except in a prophetic sense.]
Sources: Against Praxeas; On the Flesh of Christ; Apology

Quotes:
"We have always believed in one God, identified as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. All are one through unity of substance, which disposes the unity into a trinity...equal in quality, substance, and power [not three qualities, substances, and powers]" - Against Praxeas, ch. 2

"For before all things God was alone...yet even not then was He alone for he had with him that which he possessed in himself, his own Reason...which the Greeks call the 'Logos', which is designated 'Word'." - Against Praxeas, ch. 5

"All the Scriptures give clear proof of the Trinity, and it is from these that our principle is deduced...the distinction of the Trinity is quite clearly displayed." - Against Praxeas, ch. 11

" [God speaks in the plural "Let us make man in our image] because already there was attached to Him his Son, a second person, his own Word, and a third, the Spirit in the Word....one substance in three coherent persons. He was at once the Father, the Son, and the Spirit." - Against Praxeas, ch. 12

"The Father is God, the Son is God, the Spirit is God. Each is God. Yet we have never given vent to the phrases 'Two Gods or Two Lords'." - Against Praxeas, ch. 13

"The connection of Father and Son, of Son and the Paraclete [Holy Spirit] makes three who cohere in a dependent series. And these three are one thing; not one person." - Against Praxeas, ch. 25

"The Son of God is identical with God. The Spirit of God is God." - Against Praxeas, ch. 26

"Jesus consisted of flesh as man, of spirit as God. We see a two-fold mode of being, not confused, but conjoined in one person, who is God and man." - Against Praxeas, ch. 27

"Thus the quality of two modes of being displayed the humanity and the divinity: born as man, unborn as God." - On the Flesh of Christ, 5

"No angel ever descended for the purpose of being crucified, of experiencing death, of being raised from the dead." - On the Flesh of Christ, 6

"So too, that which has come forth out of God is at once God and the Son of God; and the two are one. In his birth he is God and man united." - Apology, ch. 21

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HIPPOLYTUS

Booklet: Hippolytus, who died about 235 C.E., said that God is "the one God, the first and the only One, the Maker and Lord of all," who "had nothing co-eval [of equal age] with him . . . But he was One, alone by himself; who, willing it, called into being what had no being before," such as the created prehuman Jesus.
[The description "created prehuman Jesus" is not in quotation marks because no such statement exists in the writings of Hippolytus.]
Sources: Refutation of All Heresies; Against Noetus

Quotes:
"He who is over all, God blessed, has been born, and having been made man. He is God forever. For to this extent John in (Revelation 1:8) has named Christ the Almighty." - Against Noetus, Part 6

*nbsp;*nbsp; "God, while existing alone before the creation of the world, existed in plurality." - Against Noetus, Part 10

"According to the tradition of the Apostles, God the Word came down from heaven...He came forth into the world and, in the body, showed himself to be God." - Against Noetus, Part 17

"Only the Word is from Himself and is therefore also God, bearing the substance of God." - Refutation 10:33

"For Christ is the God above all..." - Refutation 10: 34

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ORIGEN

Booklet: Origen, who died about 250 C.E., said that "the Father and Son are two substances . . . two things as to their essence," and that "compared with the Father, [the Son] is a very small light."
[Origen held to orthodox Christian beliefs until he came under the influence of Lucian. Afterwards, Origen taught a "generic unity" and not a numerical one, i.e., he believed that they were of the same substance but separate in being, and that the Son was a subordinate being. This paved the way for Arianism which further taught that the Son was created.]
Sources: Against Celsus, De Principiis, Comm. In Ioannem

Quotes:
"The Savior sometimes speaks concerning himself as a man, and sometimes as a more divine human nature, a nature which is one with the uncreated nature of the Father." - Comm. In Ioannem, xix 2

"He whom we confidently believe to be God and the Son of God from the beginning..." - Against Celsus, iii 41

"The Sacred Scriptures show that the Son of God is older than all created things." - Against Celsus, V, 37

"There must be no question of lesser or greater in the Trinity." - De Principiis, i, iii, 7

"Saving baptism was not complete except by the authority of the most excellent Trinity of them all, i.e., by the naming of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit." - De Principiis, Book I, 2

"The holy Apostles, in preaching the faith of Christ, treated with the utmost clarity of certain matters which they believed to be of absolute necessity to all believers...The specific points which are clearly handed down through the Apostolic preaching [are] these: First, that there is one God who created and arranged all things...Secondly, that Jesus Christ himself was born of the Father before all creatures...Although He was God, He took flesh, and having been made man, He remained what He was, God...For we do not hold that which the heretics imagine: that the Son was procreated by the Father from non-existent substances, that is, from a substance outside Himself, so that there was a time when He did not exist." - Fundamental Doctrines, 1, pref. 2-4; 1.2.1; 4.4.1

From the book "The Triune God" which is quoted earlier in the Booklet: Author Edmund Fortmann says of Origen: "Origen is trinitarian in his thought." (p.58)

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CONCLUSION
:
All of these men lived and died in the 2nd and 3rd centuries and taught that God was a Triune God, whereas the Watchtower states on page 8 of their Booklet that the doctrine was not formulated until the 4th century.
Do you believe that the Bible was inspired by God? The Early Church Fathers were the men who determined what was canonical (inspired) and what was not. From the first 200 years of the church, these very men wrote extensively on the subjects of the Deity of Christ, the personality of the Holy Spirit, the bodily resurrection of Christ (and ours), the nature of the soul, hell, and eternal punishment. So how can you agree that the Bible was inspired yet reject the very men whose existence and writings were necessary to establish the authenticity of these Biblical books?

The Watchtower said it best when it emphasized:
"Lying is repugnant to Jehovah. They will have no place in God's new world. A religion that teaches lies cannot be true." WT 8-15-91 p.22 and WT 12-1-91 p. 7

7

Johannes Greber

by RevFrank in

who was johannes greber?

johannes greber was an ex-catholic priest who took it upon himself to translate his own version of the new testament.

to aid him in this endeavor, he contacted the "spiritworld" to reveal the proper remderings of the scriptures he sought.

RevFrank

WHO WAS JOHANNES GREBER?
Johannes Greber was an ex-Catholic priest who took it upon himself to translate his own version of the New Testament. To aid him in this endeavor, he contacted the "spiritworld" to reveal the proper remderings of the Scriptures he sought.
The Watchtower Society, desperately in need of scholastic references to support their own specific controversial translations, made full use of Greber's work even though they were aware of his involvement with spiritism. The Society discloses the true identity of Johannes Greber for the first time in a 1956 Watchtower article.

1. From the Forward to Greber's New Testament - 1937 edition

"The New Testament, as interpreted by the scholarly Pastor Johannes Greber,...is an absolutely independent translation, without restriction to the dogma of any Church.
This task was not simple. Many contradictions between what appears in the ancient scrolls and the New Testament, as we have grown to know it, arose and were the subject of his constant prayers for guidance - prayers that were answered and the discrepancies clarified to him by God's Spirit World.
At times he was given the correct answers in large illuminated letters and words passing before his eyes. Other times he was given the correct answers during prayer meetings. His wife, a medium of God's Spiritworld, was often instrumental in conveying the correct answers from God's Messengers to Pastor Greber."
2. WT 2-15-56 p.110
Greber was revealed as a spiritist who translated the New Testament with the help from God's spirits. This Watchtower page also discloses that the Society had access to the 1937 edition of Greber's translation:

"Says Johannes Greber in the introduction of The New Testament, copyrighted in 1937: "I myself was a Catholic priest, and until I was forty eight years old had never as much as believed in the possibility of communicating with the world of God's spirits.
Very plainly the spirits in which ex-priest Greber believes, helped him in his translation."

The Watchtower article mentions another publication by Greber, "Communication With the Spirit World of God", published 5 years before his New Testament translation.

3. The Word - Who is He According to John?, 1962, p. 5
This booklet, published by the Watchtower Society, sought any support possible to reinforce their own translation of John 1:1. Greber's New Testament was not overlooked. Greber's name and his 1937 New Testament are mentioned in a footnote on this page:

"...the reading by a former Roman Catholic priest: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god."

So there is no mistake about it: both the 1956 Watchtower article and the 1962 "Word" booklet are using the same edition of Greber's New Testament.

4. WT 9-15-62 p.554
Greber's rendering of John 1:1 is again quoted and his name along with his 1937 New Testament are cited in the footnote.

5. Make Sure of All Things, 1965 p.489
Greber's name is used in the "Trinity" section of this Society's book as a "scholarly" support for the 'a god' translation of John 1:1. This same book warns against practicing spiritism!

6. Aid to Bible Understanding, 1971 p. 1134
In the Society's first encyclopedia, under the entry 'MEMORIAL TOMBS' the Society refers to Greber's peculiar New Testament translation of Matthew 27: 52,53 in order to lend support to their own rendering of this verse.

Greber's translation of Matthew 27: 52,53:

"Tombs were laid open, and many bodies of those buried there were tossed upright. In this posture they projected from the graves and were seen by many who passed by the place on their way back to the city."
7. Aid to Bible Understanding, 1971 p. 1669
Under the entry 'WORD, THE' the encyclopedia cites Greber as a supporter for the "a god" rendering in John 1:1.

8. WT 10-15-75 p.640
The Watchtower Society denies that an actual resurrection occurred in Matthew 27:52,53. Therefore, they twist the wording in this verse to read:

"And the memorial tombs were opened and many bodies of the holy ones that had fallen asleep were raised up, (and persons, coming out from among the memorial tombs after his being raised up, entered into the holy city,) and they became visible to many people."
Thus, in this Watchtower issue, they appeal to the translation of Johannes Greber who believed as they did.

9. WT 4-15-76 p. 231
Greber is again used to support the fraudulent translation of Matthew 27:51-53.

10. Watchtower Letter 12-20-80
The Society writes the Greber Foundation acknowledging receipt of both of Greber's books. The letter, typed on Watchtower stationery with the Society's letterhead reads:

December 20, 1980

JOHANNES GREBER MEMORIAL FOUNDATION
139 Hillside Ave.
Teaneck, NJ 07666

Gentlemen:

This is to acknowledge receipt of the two books you recently sent to us, The New Testament translated by Johannes Greber, and his book "Communication with the Spirit World of God."
We appreciate you sending these volumes on to us. For some years we have been aware of the translation by Johannes Greber and have on occasion even quoted it. Copies of the translation, though, have been hard to obtain. Since we have four libraries in our headquarters facilities consulted by the members of our staff, including the writers for our journals and books, we wonder about the possibility of obtaining a few additional copies of The New Testament.
Please direct any communication about the above request to the Writing Department, Desk EG.

Sincerely,
Watchtower Bible & Tract Society
of New York, Inc.

11. Letter to the Watchtower, 9-21-81
This is one of over 20 letters to which the Governing Body, sent just 9 months later, denying knowledge of how to obtain the Greber New Testament. They gave a false address and source of a building torn down years before. So it was obvious that the Society was involved in a cover-up. They did not want their readers or members to know who Greber really was.
On the same Watchtower stationery is a sample of one of those letters:

September 21, 1981

Helen McAllister
508 West Eleventh Street
Claremont, California 91711

Dear Sister McAllister:

Your letter of August 20, 1981, has been received, and is now before us for answering.
You ask for information as to how you may obtain a copy of The New Testament, by Johannes Greber. The only address we have is that given in the translation itself, which was a 1937 edition. It lists the publishers as being, John Felsberg, Incorporated, 80 Fourth Avenue, New York, New York. We do not note an up-to-date listing in the New York Directory, so it may be necessary to have your bookstore send out a search inquiry regarding the translation.
We trust our comments prove helpful. We take this occasion to send herewith an expression of warm Christian love and best wishes.

Your brothers in Jehovah's service,

Watchtower Bible & Tract Society
of New York, Inc.

12. WT 4-1-83 p. 31
In a response in the "Questions From Readers" section of this Watchtower issue, the Society made these statements as to why the Society had not made recent use of the New Testament translation by Johannes Greber:

"But as indicated in a foreword in the 1980 edition of The New Testament by Johannes Greber, the translator relied on "God's Spirit World" to clarify for him how he should translate difficult passages...The Watchtower has deemed it improper to make use of a translation that has such a close rapport with spiritism."

According to the answer given by the Society, it said it did not realize Greber was a spiritist until they obtained the 1980 edition of his New Testament. In essence they are saying that the 1937 edition did not reveal this information about Greber.

What nonsense! Their tampering with the truth can be shown by comparing this answer with the 1956 Watchtower article that was mentioned above.

Since the Society had access to the 1937 edition of Greber's New Testament, they also knew that the introduction made the following statement:

"Whoever then seeks to know what is true and what is untrue in the Bible as we have it today, can find out only in the way in which all God-fearing people in the past have sought the truth, namely by communicating with God's spirit world." (p.15)

5

Watchtower is either God or False Prophet?

by RevFrank in

jw
friends

end times.

before 1874 to present, the watchtower has missed dates after dates on when the lord will come again.

and when the date comes and goes away the watchtower either ignores it or blames someone else.. scripture speaks clearly on this issue.

RevFrank

oh dear...did I say something? Didn't Jesus come in 1874...or 1914...or 1919, or 1975..or when ever?

See I have a warped sense of Humor too...

15

Watchtower is either god or false prophet on end times

by RevFrank in

end times.

before 1874 to present, the watchtower has missed dates after dates on when the lord will come again.

and when the date comes and goes away the watchtower either ignores it or blames someone else.. scripture speaks clearly on this issue.

RevFrank

For many years the Watchtower has said that before the generation of 1914 dies out the end will come.

And, very important for us, it was foretold that such final result would take place within the lifetime of just one generation, the generation that was alive in 1914. Awake 10/8/73 pg. 19

This judgment would be executed sometime during the life span of people seeing the first evidence of the time period foretold by Jesus. The start of this time period would mark the beginning of the end for SatanÕs world, against which GodÕs newly established Kingdom in heaven would execute divine judgment.

Bible chronology and the fulfillment of Bible prophecy provide ample proof that this period began in 1914. thus before the 1914 generation completely dies out, God judgment must be executed. WT. May 1, 1985 pg. 4

Who is this generation? The Watchtower explains:

Even if we presume that youngsters 15 years of age would be perceptive enough to realize the import of what happened in 1914, it would still make the youngest of Òthis generationÓ nearly 70 years old today. So the great majority of the generation to which Jesus was referring has already passed away in death. The remaining ones are approaching old age. And remember, Jesus said that the end of this wicked world would come Before the generation passed away in death. This of itself, tells us that the years left before the foretold end comes cannot be many. Awake 10/8/68 pg. 13-14

Points

Be old enough to understand events.

Youngest 70 years old today

Not many years left because not many left.

Thus, when it comes to the application in our time, the ÒgenerationÓ logically would not apply to babies born during World War 1. WT. 10/1/78 pg. 31

Points

Cannot be Babies

Babies cannot understand the events going on.

IF you assume that 10 is the age at which an event creates a lasting impression on a personÕs memory, then there are today more than 13 million Americans who have a recollection of World War 1.Ó And if the wicked system of this world survived until the turn of the century,which is highly improbable in view of world trends and the fulfillment of Bible prophecy, there will still be survivors of the World War 1 generation. However, the fact that there number is dwindling is one more indication that Òthe conclusion of the system of thingsÓis moving fast towards its end. WT.10/15/80 pg. 31

Points

Now age in 10 years old

End is almost here.

If Jesus used generation in the sense and we apply it to 1914, then the babies of that generation are now 70 years old or older. And others alive in 1914 are in their 80s or 90s., a few having reached a hundred. There are still many millions of that generation alive. Some of them Òwill by no means pass away until all things occur.Luke 21:32. WT. 5/15/84 pg.

Points

Now it can be applied to babies.

Can include people born before 1914

People are still 70 years old?

Therefore, in the final fulfillment of JesusÕ prophecy today, this generation apparently refers to the peoples of the earth who see the sign of ChristÕs presence but fail to mend their ways. WT. 11/1/95 pg.19

So a generation is no longer a generation.

So sad, those old JWs who thought that they would see the end come within their generation.

Their hopes for that is gone.

((((((There's more)))))))))))

Now lets look at the Watchtower article of

December 1, 1981, p. 27

"At times explanations given by Jehovahs visible organization have shown adjustments, seemingly to previous points of view. But this has not actually been the case. This might be compared to what is known in navigational circles as tacking. By maneuvering the sails the sailors can cause a ship to go from right to left, back and forth, but all the time making progress."

----------------------------------------------

The Scriptures show that the second presence [of the Lord] was due in 1874 . This proof shows that the Lord has been present since 1874.

--The Watch Tower, 1 March 1923, page 67

Surely there is not the slightest room for doubt in the mind of a truly consecrated child of God that the Lord Jesus is present and has been since 1874.

--The Watch Tower, 1 January 1924, page 5

Please note that I did not use any Zion's watchtower magazines only WATCHTOWER ones that were referenced in the statement of 1993. >>

Russel was once asked if they believed that they had all the answers and the full light of the truth. His answer was: "Certainly not; nor will we have until the ‘perfect day’".

So why did the WT persist in making such statements as:

"The Watchtower has consistently presented evidence that Jesus' presence in heavenly kingdom power began in 1914." Watchtower 3-15-93

The Scriptures show that the second presence [of the Lord] was due in 1874 . This proof shows that the Lord has been present since 1874.

--The Watch Tower, 1 March 1923, page 67

Surely there is not the slightest room for doubt in the mind of a truly consecrated child of God that the Lord Jesus is present and has been since 1874.

--The Watch Tower, 1 January 1924, page 5

"The Bible is our only standard, and its teachings our only creed, and recognizing the progressive character of the unfolding of Scriptural truths, we are ready and prepared to add to or modify our creed (faith-belief) as we get increase of light from our Standard." - C.T. Russell, WT, April 1882, page 7

Was it Jehovah's standard and progressive light and truth that compelled the WTS to state:

"The Watchtower has consistently presented evidence that Jesus' presence in heavenly kingdom power began in 1914." Watchtower 3-15-93 (which is not actually what was presented !)

The Scriptures show that the second presence [of the Lord] was due in 1874 . This proof shows that the Lord has been present since 1874.

--The Watch Tower, 1 March 1923, page 67

Surely there is not the slightest room for doubt in the mind of a truly consecrated child of God that the Lord Jesus is present and has been since 1874.

--The Watch Tower, 1 January 1924, page 5

-----------------------------------------------------

Now according to some.....TheJWs are known to be prophets...And that Jehovah God is Editor and Chief of the Watchtower. Bethel has said this on many points.....Jesus came in 1874.........no not really...He came in 1914........no.....

As for what hour.....You over look a few pointers....Jesus said the day and hour. So with all of the confusions the watchtower creates......"Why are you looking at 1975?" Watchtower 1968 had that heading. So what did really happen in 1975? Absolutely nothing. So the facts remain the same. No one knows of the time or day when Jesus will come again.

It sure wasn't 1874, 1914, 1925, 1941, 1950, 1975, or any other time.....Rutherford said that the Witnesses are somewhat like prophets.. Either they are or they aren't. It's like me saying that she is somewhat a little pregnant.

The Watchtower still stands and says that Jehovah God is the editor and Chief of the publication of the Watchtower and awake.

15

Watchtower is either god or false prophet on end times

by RevFrank in

end times.

before 1874 to present, the watchtower has missed dates after dates on when the lord will come again.

and when the date comes and goes away the watchtower either ignores it or blames someone else.. scripture speaks clearly on this issue.

RevFrank

END TIMES

Before 1874 to present, the Watchtower has missed dates after dates on when the Lord will come again. And when the date comes and goes away the Watchtower either ignores it or blames someone else.

Scripture speaks clearly on this issue. There is only one person that knows this date and no one, not even Jesus, knows this date.

"But that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but my Father only."(MATTHEW 24:36)

"But the day and the hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."(MARK 13:32)

So why would God Himself, the Father, tell anyone else? So who does the Watchtower think they are? GOD? If the Son doesn't know and the Son is the most favored with the Father, then anyone else...maybe the Watchtower thinks they are GOD....or is it that the Watchtower is god.....but which one?

Get over it, people. If the Father hasn't told the Son no one else knows. Now that's a theological fact.

5

Watchtower is either God or False Prophet?

by RevFrank in

jw
friends

end times.

before 1874 to present, the watchtower has missed dates after dates on when the lord will come again.

and when the date comes and goes away the watchtower either ignores it or blames someone else.. scripture speaks clearly on this issue.

RevFrank

END TIMES
Before 1874 to present, the Watchtower has missed dates after dates on when the Lord will come again. And when the date comes and goes away the Watchtower either ignores it or blames someone else.
Scripture speaks clearly on this issue. There is only one person that knows this date and no one, not even Jesus, knows this date.
"But that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but my Father only."(MATTHEW 24:36)
"But the day and the hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."(MARK 13:32)
So why would God Himself, the Father, tell anyone else? So who does the Watchtower think they are? GOD? If the Son doesn't know and the Son is the most favored with the Father, then anyone else...maybe the Watchtower thinks they are GOD....or is it that the Watchtower is god.....but which one?
Get over it, people. If the Father hasn't told the Son no one else knows. Now that's a theological fact.

46

Archie& Jughead, Richie Rich - COMICS!

by BlessedStar in

jw
friends

helllo.

are you comic book fans?

blessedstar

RevFrank

What? No one knows or remembers Archie & Jughead, let alone Richie Rich? How about Dot? Better yet, Babie Hughy? Can anyone remember when Superman or Green Lantern or Bat man wasn't seperated by issues for a continuing story? How about when Vameralia first came out? My ex-wife was so jealious of Vamperalia she threw them out. And those were the first few issues.

Ah! oh! giving my age away......

12

Contradiction in NWT

by Desino in

under which name must christians be saved?

well according to wts it is jehovah.

this is written in joel 2: 32 (read nwt).

RevFrank

PMJ........one problem with the web site you gave. The New Worlds Translation of the Holy Scriptures was not authorized by any one bibical scholar, nor any greek, latan, hewbrew, or ancient arabic translator. And none of those so called experts were a master of the english language.

Franz was the only member of the translation commettee who knew anything on greek, yet it wasn't koien greek. Koien greek is an ancient dialect greek no one has spoken since the roman empire.----- "Koine is a dialect of ancient Greek that was the lingua franca of the empire of Alexander the Great and was widely spoken throughout the eastern Mediterranean area in Roman times .

So Franz is disqualified to do the work.