Posts by Noumenon

4

Snakes image in illustration in WT study just done

by Noumenon in

i was at the meeting on sunday just gone (first time in about 5 weeks), and being a lot more attentive to detail these days, i noticed in the illustration of jacob and his sons (page 20 of june 15th watchtower) on the wall behind the old jacob there is what is clearly a bird with wings spread, but have a look at it's nec and head?

it looks more like a coiled serpent with large wings than a bird!

more sneaky images of snakes and s's (sssatan the original ssserpent)?.

Noumenon

I was at the meeting on Sunday just gone (first time in about 5 weeks), and being a lot more attentive to detail these days, I noticed in the illustration of Jacob and his sons (page 20 of June 15th Watchtower) on the wall behind the old Jacob there is what is clearly a bird with wings spread, but have a look at it's nec and head? It looks more like a coiled serpent with large wings than a bird!

More sneaky images of snakes and S's (Sssatan the original Ssserpent)?

Or am I being paranoid after having viewed on websites all these so called subliminal images in WTS publications?

NB - and check out the smiling elder on the next page...look at those eyebrows...if you drew some fangs on him he'd pass for a great Dracula.

3

Bible Students and Christ's presence

by Noumenon in

am i correct in understanding that the religious group known as the bible students, who still hold to charle's russell's teachings, still actually belief and officially subsribe to the notion that christ invisibly returned in 1874?

can anyone confirm this?.

if this is correct, i feel this is a glimpse of how the wts will never drop 1914. what may happen is there may eventually be a split, probably shortly after 2014, with a new group dropping 1914 and revisiting all prophecies with fresh interpretations, while jehovah's witnesses will remain with those still dogmatically sticking to 1914, much like the bible students group still hold to 1874.

Noumenon

Much thanks. The Dawn Bible Students are probably the group. I seem to recall reading comments from someone on this site who said they belonged to them (probably more than one?). I will have to see if any such group have a website and whether it talks about when they believe Christ's parousia began, or begins. If they hold so closely to Russell's early teachings I would say they still cling to 1874, believe it or not.

27

Let Us Create A True Religion...

by Latin assassin from Manhattan in

the wts feels that they are the true religion because they place tons of literature based on their own interpretations and because they show true christian love for one another.

this forum is testimony to the validity of their cause so i won't bother to repeat the obvious.

but if a true religion were to exist, i belive it shoud be based on the following:

Noumenon

Mizpah, you said: "My point was that in the 7 churches in Revelation, all had different ideas and beliefs as to what constituted the Christian faith."

That's not how I read the messages to the 7 congregations. They had faults and weaknesses that Jesus brought to their attention, but there is no evidence at all that they were not united on their core beliefs and what constituted the christian faith. You can guarantee none of them believed in the trinity, an immortal soul, hellfire, etc etc. There were disputes over the extent that they were to separate and no longer follow jewish customs etc, but those were minor matters.

Like you I do think the JW's have got a lot of prophetic interpretations wrong and the timing of events. E-watchman of course does a grand job of exposing a lot of their mistakes in this regard, despite his ideas on the future political development of the system sounding quite imaginative (not to say he is wrong mind you). Still, it does not follow that because Jehovah has chosen to keep the JW elite blinded to the truth about a lot of these things that they could not be Jehovah's true Organisation that he has principally used in these last days to reveal the truth about the lies taught by Christendom, to magnify his name to the nations, and to show what the Kingdom really is and the issues relating to universal sovereignty. This doesn't necessarily mean that he HAS used JW's to do this, but neither does it prove he hasn't. To say that JW's definitely aren't God's true religion is dangerous, as God's nation in the past has always had serious faults, rebellions, apostasies in it, yet they were STILL his chosen nation. Same goes in the 1st century. It is fallacious to say that a modern day religion used by God as the true religion should be doctrinally flawless, and flawless in it's treatment of it's own and others. Truth in a human organisation is never going to be 100%, until Jesus does return like you say. I see that his returning could be to cleanse and humble his people, who have grown proud, loveless, and riddled with error, rather than meaning he will at the time of his returning FIRST ESTABLISH a true religion. The way I see it the issue is how close is a religion professing to be the true religion to Christ's teachings and the central doctrines of scripture regarding the important issues, rather than focusing too strictly on the smaller things that are more difficult to be certain of, such as interpretations of ambigous prophecy. On a percentage scale, and if one can excuse what may seem a rather unscientific and subjective approach, I would put JW's at 90-95% (depending on what weighting you give something like the 1914 error they teach, upon which all their interpretations of modern time prophecy revolves). Their is a group remarkably similar to JW's in their teachings that might be up around a similar mark. Then Christadelphians might be around 70%? Then all the rest in Christendom seem to languish pathetically low doctrinally, despite many doing great charitable works and being full of lovely sincere people. Even then, if one accepts for purely arguments sake that JW's score the highest mark for measuring up to what scripture actually truthfully teaches, it still doesn't mean they are the only true religion at this time. There is a very good chance they could be, or once were and have since found God's disfavour, but it is not conclusive. The truth will become manifest at the very end.

It seems to me taht a lot of persons on this site seem to conclude that JW's cannot possibly be God's true religion, and failing to find another religion that comes within cooey of measuring up to scripture like JW's do, they conclude that there must be no true religion. They then start to question the truthfulness of the bible at all. And then some even begin to wonder about God's actual existence. It's a slippery slope. Many also conclude that by their own unhappy personal experiences in the JW organisation, or from observing or hearing about others bad treatment, that this proves it cannot be God's religion. Although that is a natural human reaction, I don't feel that is sensible and could be quite dangerous in that they could be allowing themselves to be blinded to future developments Jesus may yet reveal in relation to JW's. It would be more beneficial to take a more measured approach when in trying to rationally weigh up the merit or otherwise of JW's. (But that's hard to do for victim's of child moletation admittedly - they have every right to feel stumbled).

30

Fear

by onacruse in

kate and i just had one of our frequent "patio" discussions...my, how she sparks my mind!

we've been watching some tapes that a friend gave us, about the origin of the bible and the similarities to (read "borrowed from") other ancient mythologies.

very interesting anthropological and sociological information, even showing the biblical connection to astrology (e.g.

Noumenon

'Fear God and give him glory' - that's all. No need to fear an Organisation.

27

Let Us Create A True Religion...

by Latin assassin from Manhattan in

the wts feels that they are the true religion because they place tons of literature based on their own interpretations and because they show true christian love for one another.

this forum is testimony to the validity of their cause so i won't bother to repeat the obvious.

but if a true religion were to exist, i belive it shoud be based on the following:

Noumenon

Pistoff, Mizpah answers, albeit unintentionally, your query as to where does Jesus command his followers to form congregations. Jesus gave a revelation to John about 7 congregations in John's time, their faults and strengths. Jesus therefore clearly approves of a congregational arrangement, and the fact that he poured the holy spirit out, the 'helper' onto those in the first century congregation arrangements is also evidence of this (that is not to though that say he approves of a huge multi-billion dollar publishing house that has become like an idol and more or less replaced the role of Jesus.)

Yes, there is a big problem that every religion claims to have God's holy spirit, but that is what THEY say. That doesn't mean that God ISN'T possibly using one religion, faults and all. Satan keeps transforming himself into an angel of light however, so it is not surprise that all of them claim to be a path to God. The trick is to sift the rubbish from the good stuff, and elimate what are clearly counterfeits. Now I'm not asserting that Jehovah's Witnesses are not full of counterfeit christians, because they most surely are riddled with them, even to the highest level, but the fact they they have boldly exposed so many Babylonish pagan myths mimicking as christian teachings as false and unscriptural separates them a lot from other churches in Christendom in my mind.

Sorry Badolpuddytat (cute name) but didn't Jesus say that 'all things are possible with God'!, From our imperfect human standpoint it may seem an impossibility that a true religion could exist, but if God so wanted to he truly could. There would still be imperfect humans in that religion, but doctrinally and in it's interpretations of prophecy etc, it could be perfect if God so chose to reveal. Not that that means he is necessarily doing so right now mind you.

27

Let Us Create A True Religion...

by Latin assassin from Manhattan in

the wts feels that they are the true religion because they place tons of literature based on their own interpretations and because they show true christian love for one another.

this forum is testimony to the validity of their cause so i won't bother to repeat the obvious.

but if a true religion were to exist, i belive it shoud be based on the following:

Noumenon

There are a lot of good points there, but what you're describing doesn't much sound like a religion so much as rather a general charitable organisation designed to benefit the wider community. Granted, JW's should do more to help people in a charitable sense, like the Sallies, and stop coming across as self-righteous bible bashers only interesting in helping people if they can convert them.

You say It is enough to know that Jesus is the Son of God and that Satan is their opposer and ours. Sorry, but even the demons believe in God, as James says in his book. In fact a lot of religions don't even hold to the existence of Satan. What other religions teach the truth about what the Kingdom of God is after all...the great majority just say is is a condition of our heart, so a correct 'interpretation' of such an important matter cannot be excluded.

"Encourage bible literacy but leave interpretations and doctrines to God and Jesus". Huh?

So are God and Jesus meant to beam down correct interpretations to us. Or does this religion just sit around in little groups and put their own interpretation on things. True religion should be united doctrinally, although there should be room for healthy debate and no punitive measures against those who may disagree on some points, which is where the JW elite have gone wrong, ie, don't tolerate different views on moot beliefs.

Jesus said the holy spirit would 'guide you all into truth'. So sincere christians should be keen on discerning what the actual truth in scripture is, not just shrug shoulders and say 'ah well, it's just a matter of interpretation, so I'll just believe in God and Jesus and be a good person.' It is not trying to correctly interpret the bible which is wrong, although obviously this is bound to lead to disagreements. Joseph said 'do not interpretations belong to God'? Obviously God doesn't give personal revelations on how his word should be interpreted...rather he guides his servants via his holy spirit. Without attempting to correctly interpret, or I prefer the word understand, the bible, one cannot hope to gain as much as one can from it, thus one is depriving themselves of wisdom, truth, and treasure that God intended for us to benefit from, not shirk as too hard to find and understand. One won't find the answers to such important truths as 'what happens when we die', 'will God forever tolerate wickedness' 'is hell a place of torment' and so on and so on. The answers ARE there and it's a cop out, sorry, to say a group professing to be a true religion should not offer interpretations or explanations of what the bible truthfully teaches on a certain subject. Why bother being part of such a wishy washy religion at all. May as well just sit and home and just read the bible yourself.

The point is that Jesus Christ established the benchmark and test for true christianity, and carried on by the apostles. Call is 'primitive christianity' if you like, but as close as we can get to the system of worship and beliefs he taughts and revealed, the closer we are to 'true religion'. It simply ISN'T enough to say that all we need to know is that there is a God and a devil, and ignore the rest of scripture.

20

"New Light" on the generation doctrine may have been too early yet?

by reporter in

back in this thread, the generation doctrine was being discussed.

i've thought about what the society wrote below.how long a time period would these last days prove to be?

jesus said regarding the era that would experience the "beginning of pangs of distress" from 1914 onward: "this generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur.

Noumenon

That's great Garybus. You should start a whole new thread on that.

I was once the Real Witness type (pioneered and all), although born into it. Then I turned into a Social Witness. Finally I became a Reinstated borg model. Eventually the burns proved too severe and my motor conked out.

3

Bible Students and Christ's presence

by Noumenon in

am i correct in understanding that the religious group known as the bible students, who still hold to charle's russell's teachings, still actually belief and officially subsribe to the notion that christ invisibly returned in 1874?

can anyone confirm this?.

if this is correct, i feel this is a glimpse of how the wts will never drop 1914. what may happen is there may eventually be a split, probably shortly after 2014, with a new group dropping 1914 and revisiting all prophecies with fresh interpretations, while jehovah's witnesses will remain with those still dogmatically sticking to 1914, much like the bible students group still hold to 1874.

Noumenon

Am I correct in understanding that the religious group known as The Bible Students, who still hold to Charle's Russell's teachings, still actually belief and officially subsribe to the notion that Christ invisibly returned in 1874? Can anyone confirm this?

If this is correct, I feel this is a glimpse of how the WTS will never drop 1914. What may happen is there may eventually be a split, probably shortly after 2014, with a new group dropping 1914 and revisiting all prophecies with fresh interpretations, while Jehovah's Witnesses will remain with those still dogmatically sticking to 1914, much like The Bible Students group still hold to 1874.

20

"New Light" on the generation doctrine may have been too early yet?

by reporter in

back in this thread, the generation doctrine was being discussed.

i've thought about what the society wrote below.how long a time period would these last days prove to be?

jesus said regarding the era that would experience the "beginning of pangs of distress" from 1914 onward: "this generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur.

Noumenon

Reporter, it makes no difference that people are still living that were alive in 1914, and there are still lots of them of course, despite their being extremely old and decrepid now. To suggest this generation could stretch to 2034 from 1914 defies credibility and commonsense. The Society weren't stupid enought to carry on with such a ridiculous position, especially as everyone had it in mind that a generation at most could only be 70 or 80 years going by some scripture in Psalms which got everyone looking to 1994 (which scripture made no mention of 'generation' incidentally), but of course they have just stuck a patche on the old wineskin doctrine of 1914, and we can see evidence of the wineskin leaking more and more.

If you examine the Biblical use of 'generation' it is clearly 40 years. The generation that was to die off in the wilderness was between 20 and 60 years of age (the references to this are in Numbers I think), and obviously the 1st century 'generation' period when jesus uttered his words ended 37.5 years later with Jerusalem in 70ce. So the Society have forsaken letting the bible interpret itself on this matter, which they make a big deal of, and have instead twisted Jesus words to refer to a vague era or epoch. They have applied an arbitrary and capricious interpretation to fit everything around their cherished but erroneous 1914 teaching, and have thus rendered Jesus use of the expression 'generation' as meaningless. It is anchoring this 37.5 to 40 year period to the false date 1914 that is wrong, not the clear meaning of Jesus use of the word 'generation.'

The Kingdom is overtaking the WTS.

15

Ghosts and Hades: Another Watchtower Deception

by metatron in

what did the jews in jesus' day think about the soul and hades?.

if you read the watchtower, you might think that they dutifully followed jw teaching.

and had no idea about immortal souls or ghosts or punishment in hades.. .

Noumenon

So what are you trying to prove, that the bible says the human soul is immortal? Get real.