Posts by adamah

340

Fallacies about Faith

by tec in

jw
friends

peace to you!.

this thread is about false things (some) atheists think theists believe.

this is not a thread about false things that atheists think about theists.

adamah

BOTR said-

What is interesting is that Noah is completely amoral.

I'd say 'immoral' is more like it, rather than 'amoral'.

But in fact, the only words spoken by Noah that are recorded in the Bible is when Noah curses Ham (which is the very-first time the word 'slave' appears in the Bible), with Noah creating the institution of slavery as punishment for Ham's offense. This occurs just after God had delegated Divine authority to 'just' Noah to allow men to control their fellow men (as required to enforce the prohibition against bloodshed, i.e. establishing the first justice system in the World, since anarchy existed before the Flood since God forgot to delegate authority for men to self-rule).

So God actually gave Noah permission to create and institute a system of slavery (which was later regulated under Mosaic Law).

340

Fallacies about Faith

by tec in

jw
friends

peace to you!.

this thread is about false things (some) atheists think theists believe.

this is not a thread about false things that atheists think about theists.

adamah

Perry said-

It is a completely different way of living; and one that is likely to appear foolish to an unbeliever. But, I've been doing this for many years now and it gets results, results, results. I'm all about results. It works. Prior to my belief and trust in Christ, there was little that worked to the degree that I wished it to in my life. I was powerless against my vices.

You do realize that's a benefits-based argument for belief, right? Saying all it's done for you ("results, results, results") is great and all, but you know what ELSE works for people? Placebo treatments like homeopathy, etc. These types of faith-based treatments cannot live up to the scrutiny of light of clinical trials, since the study investigators actually KNOW about the placebo effect, and know to adjust for it. In the end, snake-oil claims don't work.

Instead, the ONLY valid reason to believe in something is not simply based on whether it works or not (a teleological argument), but primarily IF it is TRUE.

It's great that you got a handle on your vices, but I've got a new-flash for you: not everyone else has addiction issues and vices, since some of us are too busy to let silly substances or vices get in the way of actually doing something with our lives, living in a productive manner.

myelaine said- I refer to the noahide laws because unlike the laws of moses they are not culturally or religiously specific...being the laws for mankind.

No response to the pedophilia question, myelaine?

BTW, are you a Noahide? You DO realize that those seven Noahide principles are incorporated in civil and criminal law, right? eg try eating the limb from a living animal (likely a practice from the age before refrigeration was invented), and the SPCA and sheriff's deputies will be all over you for cruelty to animals.

See, that's the same problem with Jesus' law of love ("love your neighbor as thyself"): it sounds great in theory, but it offers NOTHING on specifics, so everyone is forced to exercise their own moral sense of what it means.

eg what if the person doesn't love themself, and their self-hatred leads them to act hatefully to others? Technically, he is loving his neighbors as he does himself, so he's following Jesus' principle. And is it loving your neighbor to use a 5%, 10%, or 15% capital gains tax rate on uneraned income when filing one's 1040?

Principles are great for generalities, but short on specifics: that's WHY we need complicated legal codes (often based on community standards), to be able to tell the cop on the street and the judge in the court which actions are prohibited in order to provide the citizens a sense of fairness and equal justice for all. "God-given moral codes" are a Xian pipe-dream and fantasy, often spoken of, but being non-existent in practice.

Adam

43

Carrie Underwood tweets, thanking God for successful Sound of Music performance

by adamah in

after a live 3 hour performance, the "american idol" winner tweets,.

"glory to god tonight...i couldn't be more proud.

what a tough thing to pull off and we did it!

adamah

BTW, expect to see more live musicals on TV, since NBCs 'Sound of Music' scored a ratings home-run, giving NBC their most-watched entertainment prime-time programming in seven years:

http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/tv/showtracker/la-et-1209-live-television-20131207,0,5938350.story#axzz2mtzmPGoy

The pair serving as producers of the show are the same guys behind the recently-cancelled show "Smash" (about Broadway), so this was vindication for them; it makes sense, as it falls in line with the Fox's "Glee" success; SoM is like live televised community theater.

Oh, Carrie Underwood fires back at her critics (some of whom called her "Underwooden", referring to her flat acting performance), by dismissing them as "mean people who need Jesus":

"Plain and simple: Mean people need Jesus," Underwood tweeted Friday, a day after the live special. "They will be in my prayers tonight ... 1 Peter 2:1-25."

http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/gossip/la-et-mg-carrie-underwood-sound-of-music-live-reaction-20131207,0,6691764.story#ixzz2mu0fATqN

Polarizing ego-driven comments like that likely just endear her to Xian fanbase, and make it seem like a judgmental Xian to the rest.

Adam

16

There's a little Houdini in all of us

by freeflyingfaerie in

jw
friends

as i responded to an earlier post it occured to me that those of us who have been in the religion for any length of time are like harry houdini, the illusionist.. we willingly (for those that chose to really believe the lies) bound ourselves in chains.. we always had the opportunity to releaase ourselves...it was all an illusion...an illusion that we played along with.

but the option to end the mental confinement was always within our power.. going door to door we must have looked like a freak show to others.

we put ourselves in a glass cage in chains, as a "spectacle",...in which we were unwittingly frauds, because the whole time we could have gotton free.. that's all for now... .

adamah

FFF said-

We willingly (for those that chose to really believe the lies) bound ourselves in chains. We always had the opportunity to releaase ourselves...it was all an illusion...an illusion that we played along with. But the option to end the mental confinement was always within our power.

Interesting analogy, as individuals need to accept their culpability for keeping themselves in the group, since JWs are a GROUP that exerts power through membership. Think of all the groups out there, whether political parties, street gangs, knitting clubs, Kiwanis, etc: all exert power over their members to varying degrees via certain pressure (whether paying membership dues, or under threat of death, etc).

It's always easy to scapegoat the unnamed "they" who held you in against your will (typically the GB, elders, etc) but the point is that EVERY individual member's presence in the group contributes to the collective power OF the group, since every person is a "THEY" to someone else in the group, too. Humans cannot read thoughts, and even if they have internal doubts, they look around the KH and see all the faces of those who's association they stand to lose if DFed. You don't even have to actually shun someone to be guilty of supporting the JWs, since by your very presence you are sending a tacit unspoken message to the others.

People try to absolve themselves of guilt by saying they didn't shun anyone who was DFed, or tried to be kind, etc, but that completely ignores the point that they nevertheless were a card-carrying member OF the JWs, and while you may not have done the group's dirty work by serving as the "stick", you were the "carrot", the one who used your powers of charisma and charm to encourage the person to stay in. Nevertheless, you were still a member of the group.

The ONLY way to break the dysfunctional cycle of the WTBTS that many individuals are trapped in is by voting with your feet: despite personal cost, simply don't play the dysfunctional game. It's really that simple (and yet that hard, since don't expect a mass exodus of others deciding to take personal responsibility for their actions, and quit engaging in post-hoc rationalizations to justify them).

Cofty said- It was also something that victims of Soviet communism realised in retrospect. "we got so used to this second opinion lurking in our own heads that we considered it our own" - Gunter Kunert

A tad extreme, comparing the Soviet Union totalitarian regime to the JWs?

Last I checked, the JWs can't declare an apostate an enemy of the State and have them executed by firing squad. Anyone who's visited Berlin before the Wall came down remembers the East German border guards manning the guard towers armed with machine guns, given orders to shoot to kill anyone who attempted to escape to the West (and many died trying).

But sure, the psychological control mechanisms are similar, just that the USSR didn't have to stop there: if they didn't like someone's thoughts, they could exercise the ultimate form of thought control, using a bullet to the head.

340

Fallacies about Faith

by tec in

jw
friends

peace to you!.

this thread is about false things (some) atheists think theists believe.

this is not a thread about false things that atheists think about theists.

adamah

Island man said-

But the Quran does speak about Mohammed marrying underaged females . . . Which brings us to the next question that he hasn't considered, Adam: whose version of 'God's Law' do we use - the Bible, the Quran, The Book of Mormon? The NWT? (sorry, I just had to.

Heck, if the idea is that "older is better", then let's quit pussy-footing around and just adopt the far-older Mesopotamian cuneiform law code which pre-dates the Torah by 1,000 yrs, called the Code of Ur-Nammu:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_Ur-Nammu

It's actually not much different from Mosaic Law, in many parts (note the slavery codes, which are similiar to the Torah):

Among the surviving laws are these:

1. If a man commits a murder, that man must be killed.
2. If a man commits a robbery, he will be killed.
3. If a man commits a kidnapping, he is to be imprisoned and pay 15 shekels of silver.
4. If a slave marries a slave, and that slave is set free, he does not leave the household.
5. If a slave marries a native (i.e. free) person, he/she is to hand the firstborn son over to his owner.
6. If a man violates the right of another and deflowers the virgin wife of a young man, they shall kill that male.
7. If the wife of a man followed after another man and he slept with her, they shall slay that woman, but that male shall be set free. (§4 in some translations)
8. If a man proceeded by force, and deflowered the virgin female slave of another man, that man must pay five shekels of silver. (5)
9. If a man divorces his first-time wife, he shall pay her one mina of silver. (6)
10. If it is a (former) widow whom he divorces, he shall pay her half a mina of silver. (7)
11. If the man had slept with the widow without there having been any marriage contract, he need not pay any silver. (8)
13. If a man is accused of sorcery he must undergo ordeal by water; if he is proven innocent, his accuser must pay 3 shekels. (10)
14. If a man accused the wife of a man of adultery, and the river ordeal proved her innocent, then the man who had accused her must pay one-third of a mina of silver. (11)
15. If a prospective son-in-law enters the house of his prospective father-in-law, but his father-in-law later gives his daughter to another man, the father-in-law shall return to the rejected son-in-law twofold the amount of bridal presents he had brought. (12)
17. If a slave escapes from the city limits, and someone returns him, the owner shall pay two shekels to the one who returned him. (14)
18. If a man knocks out the eye of another man, he shall weigh out ½ a mina of silver. (15)
19. If a man has cut off another man’s foot, he is to pay ten shekels. (16)
20. If a man, in the course of a scuffle, smashed the limb of another man with a club, he shall pay one mina of silver. (17)
21. If someone severed the nose of another man with a copper knife, he must pay two-thirds of a mina of silver. (18)
22. If a man knocks out a tooth of another man, he shall pay two shekels of silver. (19)
24. [...] If he does not have a slave, he is to pay 10 shekels of silver. If he does not have silver, he is to give another thing that belongs to him. (21)
25. If a man’s slave-woman, comparing herself to her mistress, speaks insolently to her, her mouth shall be scoured with 1 quart of salt. (22)
28. If a man appeared as a witness, and was shown to be a perjurer, he must pay fifteen shekels of silver. (25)
29. If a man appears as a witness, but withdraws his oath, he must make payment, to the extent of the value in litigation of the case. (26)
30. If a man stealthily cultivates the field of another man and he raises a complaint, this is however to be rejected, and this man will lose his expenses. (27)
31. If a man flooded the field of a man with water, he shall measure out three kur of barley per iku of field. (28)
32. If a man had let an arable field to a(nother) man for cultivation, but he did not cultivate it, turning it into wasteland, he shall measure out three kur of barley per iku of field. (29)

Generally speaking, though, I find that new laws are generally preferable than old stale ancient laws, and there ought to be a modern law passed that anyone looking to any ancient legal code which is over 1,000 yrs old should automatically be held for psychiatric eval, since giving special merit to ancient laws is the height of insanity.

Adam

38

Bible Has Problems, Yet Its One Verse Can Solve All Our Problems!

by abiather in

science shows that humans have been living on earth more than 6000 years (contrary to ot chronology).

again inconsistency is pointed out in nt too which says jesus who did countless good worksincluding control over forces of nature and even death itselfyet people killed him, just like killing the duck that lays golden egg!.

despite such inconsistencies, a single verse in the bible can solve all our problems: don't call anyone on earth 'father,' because you have only one father, the one in heaven.

adamah

Island Man said-

I can easily see all nations agreeing to use the pronounciation "meow" for cat, "ruff" for dog, etc because these sounds are universally associated with these animals.

Works OK for cats, but it just isn't the case for many other animal sounds (from http://www.buzzfeed.com/robinedds/what-noises-do-animals-make-in-other-languages-here-is-an-im)

340

Fallacies about Faith

by tec in

jw
friends

peace to you!.

this thread is about false things (some) atheists think theists believe.

this is not a thread about false things that atheists think about theists.

adamah

Myelaine said- I think the arguement is that without an objective foundation (God's law) then all attempts to outline "moral regulations" are subject to the bias or lack of bias in those making the laws.

And what's the problem with that? HOW ELSE should a community decide on what laws to implement, aside from using community-based standards? Laws need to change as social attitudes and conditions change, and adopting laws that worked 3,000 yrs ago is the absolute HEIGHT of foolishness.

Myelaine said- An extreme example might be that pedophiles(sp?) might get traction in their attempt to redefine that act as a sexual orientation...no better or worse than any other sexual orientation.

So then, since you threw the example of pedophilia out there, what exactly does 'God's law' have to say on the subject of pedophilia? Can you cite a scripture where God-given morality explains God's views?

You cannot, since the Bible doesn't offer any details.

In fact, the OT often reflects the common attitude prevalent in the Ancient Near East 3,000 yrs ago, such that children were the property of the patriarch, and the father could do pretty damned-well with them as he pleased (eg Lot offered his daughters to the angry mob to be raped).

But let's set that MAJOR problem aside for a moment, to ask a couple of questions about pedophilia and morality:

1) Do you consider that laws in the US have generally reflected the mores of a God-fearing Nation over the past century or two, such that our laws generally reflect Bible-based morality on pedophilia?

2) Under what age do you consider child pedophilia to occur, i.e. at what age is a child able to give consent to engage in sex with an adult?

Adam

17

Ice storm in Texas - climate change happening yet?

by Simon in

so, with the ice storm hitting texas does this mean that they will now accept climate change is real?.

or will they just try firing guns at the clouds ....

adamah

Simon said-

They must have been ungodly and not praying enough, lol. How does it work? Weather affects everyone so do they imagine there is a collective statewide scale of grace that they have to reach to get good weather?

That was exactly how they thought about the situation in ancient Israel, where some sin that wasn't atoned threatened the entire land with calamity, eg drought.

I suspect the hunt for scape-goats to take the blame in TX will begin soon, with the usual targets of the pogrom being muslims, gays, and better yet, atheists. Gov Perry will no doubt announce an arrest warrant has been issued for atheists, with a round-up of members of the ACA (Atheist Community of Austin, TX) to begin shortly.

34

I know TTATT... so why do JW apologists still scare me?

by ILoveTTATT in

jw
friends

another of my rants.... .

why am i still scared when i read something that the jw's have written?

why does it still upset me to read jw literature?

adamah

BOTR said-

Not everyone who believes in God is limbic system impaired. This is a silly assertion.

Read it again, and point out where I said EVERYONE.

Apparently you missed this part?

Adam said- Yes, there's a few believers who are able to get their amygdalas under control, but for many....

I suspect your limbic system apparently drove you to make that silly assumption and use it to straw-man me, by extending my claim well-beyond what I said to turn it into "EVERYONE who believes in God".

BOTR, do you see the problem with letting your limbic system remain in control, and how it allows one's rationality to be over-taken at times? Thank you for providing an example of it, in this very thread....

This bit of your comment was interesting:

BOTR said- Sometimes during bad storms, if I am safely inside, I can see how beautiful the storm is. There are other times, however, when thunderstorms or weird weather patterns bring me back to my childhood fear. The more time passes, the fewer times I think of Armageddon. I was exposed to this belief.

Ah, the childhood memories of seeing bad weather or a natural disaster, and having someone in the group (a sibling, if not a parent) say it is just a preview of coming attractions for the destructive power to be experienced during Armageddon....

It reminds me of driving by local churches and someone in the car pointing out how the steeple with a cross on top will tumble off it's perch during Armageddon.

Adam

43

Carrie Underwood tweets, thanking God for successful Sound of Music performance

by adamah in

after a live 3 hour performance, the "american idol" winner tweets,.

"glory to god tonight...i couldn't be more proud.

what a tough thing to pull off and we did it!

adamah

Rip said-

But the op is not about the performance. It is about the thanks to God tweet.

Well, it's kind of about both, i.e. you'd think if she pointed to God for blessing her and helping her to pull off the performance, she'd deliver the most-inspired performance EVER, both from the dramatic and acting standpoint, rather than thanking God for not flubbing it. Granted, it was a live telecast, but Saturday Light Live has produced a semi-live (at least for the East Coast) 90 min telecast for what, almost 40 years now?

And while she can sing, yes, that's hardly a rare talent; I can think of many singers and musicians who are not as well known as her, but who have more intrinsic talent in their little finger than Carrie (and that's not to take away from her accomplishments, just that many of these others are not trying to compete for the same niche she's in). I'm reminded of Indira Ghandi's words when someone on her staff was being fawning profusely with the "aw-shucks, it was nothing" attitude after receiving a compliment, where she said, "Don't be so humble; you're not THAT great!"

But yes, the gratuitous almost-obligatory "All Glory Be to God" message is a way to communicate to her fellow believers that she's one of them, a God-fearing Xian who's claiming that her PROFESSIONAL ACTIVITY supposedly points to God's glory (and perhaps it was that the role called for her to wear a nun costume?).

It strikes me as trying to play up to her target audience, the Xian conservative right who are upset with the incessant Kardashian/Kanye hijinks, or reality TV with its hedonistic morality, and want a white blonde Xian to offer as a role model to their children. They have a desire for 'wholesome' God-fearing entertainment, just like the old "Wonderful World of Disney" TV show that aired on Sunday Night on NBC in the 1960's they remember from their childhoods.

Point being, there seems to be no in-between, no middle ground, and moving towards the direction of open displays of Xian faith (Tebow, Underwood, country/rap/gospel/pop musicians, etc) is seemingly now the norm. Jesus' words come to mind where he said not to pray in public, for these types are getting their reward in full by their showy display.

Adam