Posts by adamah

2596

The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

by cofty in

yesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.

we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.

they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.

adamah

TEC said-

I'm not the one quote mining and misrepresenting others' views. Someone doesn't understand something... simply ask. Don't assume. That is one of the problems in this world. Assuming what someone means... rather than simply asking them to clarify. That is also a problem with 'christianity'. Assuming what Christ (or God) meant and imposing that assumption onto everyone else... instead of asking Him.

Sigh.... We're back there, are we?

God apparently doesn't feel the need to break radio silence to save the lives of 250k from a tsunami, but apparently Jesus is ours for the asking and willing to let us in on the secret recipe for resurrection (baby's teeth).

It's like watching a puppy chasing it's own tail; cute for the entertainment value at first, but eventually becomes rather pathetic when the puppy grows into a full-sized dog with an OCD-like fixation on it's own tail, and cannot stop chasing it 24/7, never figuring out that the tail is part of the dog's own body (the dog seems trapped in a permanent case of "body integrity identity disorder").

Adam

2596

The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

by cofty in

yesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.

we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.

they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.

adamah

TEC said-

I am sure that you possess the mental capacity to get your point across without resorting to petty and 'feeble' insults. (feeble-minded, weak-willed, beleivers are empty inside and have gaping holes to fill... ) I am sure you have even lectured other atheists on the harm they might cause for using them when trying to discuss faith with beleivers. Your insults are not even true... feeble-minded would be to against what one knows to be true, caving into the pressure and insults and ridicule of some here, just to be accepted and appear rational and logical... whatever it is that would get the approval of such people.

Tone-trolling, too, TEC?

How about just answering the question Cofty asked a page or two back, in a simple YES or NO manner, and then you're free to spout mindless excusiology to rationalize away the display of weak-minded morality-free logic which relies on an "appeal to authority"?

Caliber ironically resorted to using ammunition with BB-gun-sized caliber by citing the lyrics of Garth Brooks: can you come up with anything slightly better, or does BB-gun-sized ammunition possess sufficient 'stopping power' to completely stop all critical thoughts in their tracks inside your head, too?

Adam

8

Hidden Meanings of the Bible: It's All About the Mind

by ProdigalSon in

back in bible times, the common literary style was in parables, metaphors, and allegories.

the reason for this is that the spiritual truths they were trying to convey are too abstract and difficult to express in literal terms.

the bible itself says that not a word jesus spoke was literal:.

adamah

prodigal son said-

The Bible has much more to say about the left brain and right brain and the split in our consciousness.

That's a great example of the folly of relying on modern-day scientific knowledge to anachronistically project them into ancient writings where they don't belong. To the contrary, the Bible actually reflects a complete ignorance of the brain, since it's like God dailed basic human anatomy. It explains why the word for the brain, the 3 Lb greyish organ that's located inside the skull is not found ANYWHERE in the entire Bible (unlike heart, which appears MANY times, or even the word 'mind', which is now understood to be an emergent property of the brain that leads to consciousness).

Study the history of science and medicine, and you'll quickly learn that ancient physicians before 500BC believed that the HEART was the center of cognition, and NOT the brain (as even a kindergartener knows today: we think with our brains). It's why the Bible often speaks of the 'evil thoughts found in the heart of men': that literally WAS their belief, and even Aristotle made the mistake of relying on common sense (and the other Greek physicians like Alcmaeon actually bothered to work with patients with head injuries to prove their hypothesis, which overturned the older existing belief which was based on ancient Egyptian thinking).

Search the archives for "heart Aristotle brain", as there's been many posts in the past written on the topic, including links to medical journals that discuss the evolving history of medical thought in ancient history. Here's one link to get you started:

http://www.princeton.edu/~cggross/Neuroscientist_95-1.pdf

And you do realize that lateralization of brain function is of questionable value, as it's often been exploited and over-simplified to make laypersons think they understand a complex topic AND to sell them "stuff"? Fact is, the interworking of BOTH hemispheres is undenaible, since very few tasks rely on a single side of the brain, only, but rests on interaction of the entire organ.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lateralization_of_brain_function

Adam

37

An incident in Michigan

by Mandette in

an article on a jw who died from lack of blood.

family then sued..

adamah

Violia said-

Recently (news from MA I think)the incident of the 13 yr old girl who died after a routine tonsillectomy. ( not jws) Her mother said she told the nurses her daughter was bleeding too much but was more or less ignored. I guess you know the rest.

Yeah, that case was out of Oakland, CA, and it was discussed on yesterday's "Atheist Experience" at the beginning of the show (called "Brain dead IS dead"), when host Jen Peeples talked about it as the featured topic:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Xeh96Uk5L8

Jen also talks of a disturbing case in TX where a women who previously expressed her desire not to be placed on life support was, since she was pregnant at the time of her suffering a pulmonary embolism. So despite her husband's objections (i.e. her next of kin, where he wanted to respect her wishes to let her die with dignity), her body is now being used as an incubator due to laws in TX, which in essence place the interests of the unviable fetus above the pregnant woman's wishes.

The case is also discussed later in the show, when a pro-life caller brings it up again (at 22:40 min mark).

Adam

2596

The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

by cofty in

yesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.

we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.

they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.

adamah

Caliber said-

Immediate answers to prayer. You want them. I want them. But God simply does not always work that way. And to get His best, we must be patient. In some cases, we must wait until 11:59 for His answer to come.

Holy Hell, Caliber: can't you come up with anything more feeble-minded than citing Apostle Garth's dreadful and soppy lyric? Doesn't that give you even the slightest clue that maybe your thinking is NOT based on logic, but is more of an emotional response based on your desires?

And you DO realize you're repeating yourself (#8 "it wasn't God's time to act" has already been offered in many rephrased variations)?

It's simply a rephrased variant of the classic JW thought-stopper, "We must wait on Jehovah!", or "Don't get ahead of Jehovah's chariot!" etc etc? Did any of that kind of vapid excuse-making work on you when in the JWs? If not, then why do you think it's any-more powerful of an excuse now, esp on an ex-JW board where many know it for meaningless excusiology?

The claim rests on a string of questions presuppositions which must be accepted on faith; unfortunately, 250k people waited until 11:59 and their requests went unfilled.

Again, your 'argument' (if one wants to call it that) is based on the presupposition that dismisses this Earthly life as only the opening act to be tolerated until the headliner act (the one you bought the tickets to see) takes the stage, with the Earthly existence used as the dirty floor-mat to clean one's dirty shoes ('mortal coil' or 'vessel', in Xian speak) before entering Heaven with it's pristine white carpets.

FHN said-

Glad, I didn't think of you as one to poke fun at this kind of thread topic or its author. Did someone knock you out and commandeer your computer? You're generally more effective with your posts because you usually treat posters in a respectful way.

FHN, are you still struggling with self-control issues to overcome that bad habit of "tone-trolling"? You cannot claim ignorance, since I've repeated out a nasty tendency to resort to it. Here it is again:

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Tone_troll

A tone troll is someone who, in the course of a debate, dismisses an opponent's argument based on perceived crassness, hysteria, or anger. [1] It's a particularly slimy form of ad hominem attack beloved of Very Serious People, and its sliminess comes of it being quite commonly deployed against opponents lower on the privilege ladder.

Rather than addressing the central claims of an argument, it focuses on superficial, "shrill" features of said argument, which inherently isn't that logical. Tone trolling in practice is almost always dishonest and therefore kind of creates an "appearance of impropriety" situation.

If you can add anything of substance to the discussion (vs attacking the style of posters who's arguments you not coincidentally disagree with, focusing on their style and rests on the "valuing style over substance" fallacy), then please do so.

Adam

6

NKTV shows Dennis Rodman and Kim Jong-eun and Dennis's Badass Vodka

by fulltimestudent in

in the video clip dennis meets kim jong-eun shows him a display of his vodka and introduces the two teams at the basketball match.. its unclear in the video whether rodman is offering a gift to jong-eun or is selling his vodka to nk.

if he's selling it - its a violation of us.

law.

adamah

It was funny to watch Kim Jong-eun seemingly avoid making eye contact with his visitors, and to see everyone kissing his arse. What a power trip it must be (and you'd think he would not walk about with the doofus haircut: maybe that's intentional, since a ruler can do whatever the Hell he wants)?

No doubt demonstrating his power by putting his own uncle to death has everyone in the crowd applauding just a little bit more enthusiastically than usual....

Adam

34

Immoral sleeping arrangement?

by hoser in

jw
friends

i'm reading through the watchtower rule book right now and i came to the chapter clarification and guidelines on handling certain matters.

there is a part about scriptural divorce and even if adultery is not proved if your ex stayed all night or is involved in an immoral sleeping arrangement you can get scriptural grounds to remarry.. .

they make a rule, then they have to make a rule for the rule, make another rule for the rule for the rule.

adamah

Actually, the 'two witness' rule is needed to prove adultery; the issue of remarriage after being given a scriptural divorce is a separate matter, since the innocent spouse risks committing adultery:

"Although the elders cannot tell the innocent mate that he is free to marry because adultery was not proved, in view of the circumstances, if the innocent mate is convinced that adultery did occur, the elders may allow him to take responsibility before Jehovah for obtaining a Scriptural divorce; if he remarries, no judicial action will be taken."

In essence they're making re-marriage a conscience matter, and actually not a matter for the judicial committee; so they're actually softening the hard-line position on divorce that comes straight out of Jesus' mouth, in Matthew 19:

Divorce

1 When Jesus had finished saying these things, he left Galilee and went into the region of Judea to the other side of the Jordan. 2 Large crowds followed him, and he healed them there.

3 Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?”

4 “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’ 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’ ? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”

7 “Why then,” they asked, “did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?”

8 Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

Jesus said nothing about if the mate was convinced their spouse had committed adultery, and thus would stand before God; it still needs to be proven.

Note in verse 8 that Jesus doesn't say that Moses was all wet, but instead blames the Israelites (and the ones he's talking to) by suggesting they were stoopid (sic), so basically Jesus is patronizing them (and also not responding to the question asked). Jesus didn't shift from the Genesis position, but notice how he allows divorce for adultery, a concept NOT found in Genesis; Jesus appeals to his own authority to update the policy on divorce!

10 The disciples said to him, “If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry.”

Jesus' disciples are asking if it's best just not to get married in the first place, since someone cannot get divorced for whatever reason they wish (as under Mosaic law) without facing getting stoned for adultery. Jesus tactily agreed when he acknowledged what they suggested:

11 Jesus replied, “Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 12 For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others—and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.”

So there it is: from Jesus' own words, it's better to remain celebate and single, and pass entirely on marriage and live like a eunuch! JWs picked up on that, since you've gotta put Kingdom interests first, per Jesus! Clearly sex is for those spiritual weaklings who cannot suppress and control their fleshly urges....

Ahhhh, the timeless wisdom of Jesus, and the family values on the life of a eunuch display....

JWs actually DO interpret the original message of Jesus more accurately than other Xian religions, but it's amazing that anyone lives their lives according to the dictates of some 2,000 yr old legal principles.

Adam

1

ALL FAITHFUL are gare-run-teed (sic) to pass!

by adamah in

so, let's say you accept jesus as your personal savior, and even prayed to god for the gift of faith, needed to obtain salvation.. but per 1 cor 10:13:.

"no temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind.

and god is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear.

adamah

So, let's say you accept Jesus as your personal Savior, and even prayed to God for the gift of faith, needed to obtain salvation.

But per 1 Cor 10:13:

"No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it."

So since all believers are guaranteed to pass their tests, what's the point of testing believers via hardships in the first place, if everyone's guaranteed to pass?

And doesn't the existence of ex-Xians (who once were 'saved' believers) who eg fell prey to the 'sin' of wondering if God existed or not (and are now atheists or agnostics) kinda blow that concept out of the water? Were they not tested beyond what they could bear, and they failed, since they gave in to the power of reasoning?

Adam

2596

The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

by cofty in

yesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.

we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.

they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.

adamah

Notice how believers desperately cling to the Universal Sovereignty issue as if it's the universal answer, when they cannot even begin to explain where the concept came from, or HOW it represents anything similar to an answer. Whatever it is, it's clearly NOT Biblical, and one REALLY has to engage in massive creative eisegesis in order to claim to see it in Genesis 3. Worse, it's a concept that totally flies in the face of the rest of the Bible, since God's entire Bible represents MASSIVE intervention with Satan's 'turn'.

Gladiator said-

Frankly the idea that Satan has ruled the world makes more sense. The snag is that he hasn’t ruled it for a time, as the Watchtower Society claims, but since the beginning of human time. He got the attention of the first humans, even before they had become parents, and turned them away from god. God’s immediate response was to hand rulership over to Satan; not for just a few years but from the very beginning until now. What a wimp. I have more respect for Satan’s character and cunning.

It's absolutely ludicrious, like a guy who builds a new type of vehicle from the ground up, designing and crafting all of the parts himself. Then when it's finished, someone alleges that he could drive it better than the guy who designed and built it, and the guy thinks about it for a moment and says, "You know, you may have a point there, so let's settle this idle bar bet right here and now! Even though I've just turned it on, here's the car keys: you're on!". So the builder hands the car keys over to the challenger!

Worse, there's nothing that precludes the same scenario from happening over and over again, since the next challenger just might be better than the last one, and how would anyone know if the builder didn't hand HIM the car keys so we could all find out?

It fails as a theodicy response to 'natural evil', since as I said before, God has NO PROBLEM repeatedly intervening to challenge Satan's reign in the Bible, so God's desires to shy away from intervention fails when used as an excuse, as if to avoid the appearance of tampering: God had no problem tampering before.

Of course, the FAR simpler answer is God's non-existence...

Gladiator said- Fortunately for me, it is all just a romping mythological yarn and as far detached from reality as Thor and Odin. No, hold on, much further than that. The magic of reality is so refreshing.

Not a day goes by when I'm not stunned by how insane the whole situation of believing in Gods and demons actually is; I feel like I'm living in Medieval times, where everyone's on the inside of a practical joke that never ends.

People CANNOT be that controlled, weak-minded, or so empty inside as need an imaginary being to fill the gaping void of their daily existence, can they? Apparently so....

Caliber said- we are caught in the middle of a battle for hearts and minds and universal rulership ....which was not God's desire or making from the begining

Who is "we"?

Who's "hearts and minds" are being battled over? Will there be a show of hands to decide the issue? Will those 250k dead be allowed to vote?

Hell, even the idea of mortals going to Heaven counteracts the US issue, since to be fair, people would know about God's promised offering of Heaven, and the souls wouldn't be allowed to GO to Heaven as a reward until AFTER Satan's trun was over.... YET ANOTHER Logical fail!

BTW, your "it was not God's desire" flies in the face of the beliefs and claims of other Xians: some would say that God knew about the Fall beforehand, being omniscient and all, but made the Universe anyway, knowing full-well that Adam would sin.

It's also a very childish argument, related to the cry of 5 yr olds everywhere, blaming the other by saying, "Well, you started it...."

Adam

2596

The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

by cofty in

yesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.

we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.

they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.

adamah

Gladiator said-

Surely your not saying that you don't believe the Watchtower?

LOL!

The more relevant question is, how could ANYONE over the age of 12 believe this kind of foggy-brained horse-shit? Is critical-thinking THAT endangered, or so under-valued as to be the Cinderella of the brain, the unwanted stepchild who has to do the mundane housework

while the ugly emotional half-sisters attend the grand ball?

Sadly, many people allow their emotional desires to drive their beliefs, where the age of the emotional brain is seemingly comparable to that of a slow child...

Adam