Posts by adamah

17

Sense of Mortality, Existential Angst and Leaving the Borg

by Frazzled UBM in

firstly apologies if i am stating the bleeding obvious or covering something that has already been covered or just showing my ignorance as someone who wasnever a jw - i am new here and relatively new in my exposure to the wbts organisation and its dogma.

the thing that has occurred to me is that born-in jws and middle-age jws must avoid the teenage existential angst of really getting a sense of their own mortaility and the middle age crisis of realizing that their best years are behind and they on the long downhill slide, because they expect to live forever.

i always wondered why teenage jws are goody two-shoes while they are believers and often go off the rails, even as 20 or 30 something adults, when they wake up and i figure that, apart from the fact that they are no longer being told what is right and wrong and all of a sudden have to work it out for themselves, this may related to the expectation that you will not physically die.

adamah

It's more likely the result of having been raised from birth in an authoritarian environment, where thinking of the right course is actively discouraged.

You see the same behavior of overcompensating (going off the deep end) when someone has been confined to institutions their entire lives are finally released: they haven't learned to make decisions, only to follow orders, so their own internal moral sense is atropied from long-term neglect and lack of use. It happens to Amish youth when they're allowed to head to the big city in an experience called rumspringa, where they're only destined to return to the Amish community when they realize it's not so easy to get along in the World and they're fishes out of water (primarily because their social development has been retarded and suppressed, thus setting them up for failure in the "real World").

That's exactly why the JW practice of shunning, door-to-door service, meeting attendence, etc is damaging in the long-run: people are being conditioned to follow orders (and are ordered to punish others, increasing in their domain as they raise in the ranks). That's the damaging effect of being a cog in authoritarian institutions like JWs, where the goal is to socially isolate from the World.

Adamah

33

The Truth about Eve...... is there more to the story, and has it been hidden by religion ?

by *lost* in

i get the feeling that there is more to the eve story than we are aware of.. if we look at the patriachal religions, they are very 'anti-woman'.

is this based on their corruption of the bible story.. .

yes, i think there is more to the story of eve, and our the 'origins' than we think.. father god, mother goddess.. .

adamah

Lost, the motifs and themes of the story are not exclusive to Genesis, but were used in other cultures throughout the Ancient Near East (eg Hesiod's Prometheus, the account of Pandora's Box where she introduced all the evils of the world due to her curiosity).

The cultures of the ANE were highly-patriarchal (and still are!), and hence the story reflects the commonly-accepted belief that women were "less than" men. Some commentators even suggest Eve's crime was trying to alter the balance of power that God had instituted by daring to join the ranks of the Elohim by gaining the wisdom of a God. Part of Eve's curse was for her desire to NOT be for wisdom (which drove her to eat the fruit), but for her desire to be subsumed to the Adam's desires. That's 'Paul's' later interpretation of the Genesis account, citing Eve's curse as proof of why women need to be in submission to their husbands.

I've written an article on the paradox of Adam and Eve, explaining all of that in greater detail, but it's hard to see it as any other than a reflection of a prevalent attitude that was shared amongst ancient men (which included misogeny, an excuse to justify keeping women pregnant and barefoot in the kitchen, as well as slavery, also a common practice).

Adamah

7

Is skepticism genetic?

by donny in

is skepticism genetic?.

a few days ago i was listening to seth andrews podcast the thinking atheist , in particular the episode entitled clash from the past in which seth debated his former boss from seths christian radio host days.

before seth eve evolved into atheism, he was a radio show host on tulsas premier christian radio station kxoj 100.9 fm.

adamah

Phizzy said-

I think I have a genetic disposition to question Authority, whenever I am told to do something, my first reaction is, "why should I ? "

Heh, that sounds alot like ME as a child, Phizzy, always asking "why? why?"

I was stubborn, not so much as questioning authority, but insistent on trying to understand how devices worked by taking them apart (which was something my dad also did when he was a child, only he apparently was able to put them back together again, afterwards!).

Fortunately my parents were divorced, and my single mom didn't join the JWs until I was about 6. She wasn't one to blindly follow others, and hence why she was eventually DFed (I suspect her emotional vulnerability was due to the significant stress of being a divorced working mother of four children (!), which is going to make the surety of the JWs and religious beliefs an enticing message to want to believe).

That inquisitive and questioning nature of children is often quickly suppressed by many parents with a slap across their back-sides, since many parents actively discourage the attitude by passing along their own frustrations at being suppressed by authority figures in THEIR lives (JWs and elders, anyone?).

So that authoritarian approach to life is only being taught to one's offspring and passed off as acceptable under the banner of "parenting", when ideas like 'spare the rod and spoil the child' borders on intellectual and emotional incest (hence why JWs often homeschool their children; they don't want them to be exposed to any ideas different than their own, so seek to avoid the exposure).

He was raised in a tight Christian enviroment by parents who are theologans and yet he began thinking logically and eventually left the faith. I am not sure why some of us began questioning in this manner while others who are raised in similar enviroments never consider the "no God" option.

My siblings are still in the JWs (one an elder, ex-pioneer to "where the needs were greater" for a decade, Bethelite), and they were raised under the same roof as I. Some people's spirits are more-easily broken than others, although I also was the youngest; there's often 'birth order' dynamics and other external factors that effect whether one child is able to flourish, or if their spirit is crushed. ALSO, they were baptized when young; I wasn't. HUGE difference, since I was free to take a different path and they were already trapped in with a virtual social noose around their necks.

Sad, really, as they were just as smart (if not SMARTER) and inquisitive as I; my brother spoke 3-4 languages and had a photographic memory. HE would've done well in college, had he only gone. A mind is a terrible thing to waste.

Adam

22

Proof the bible was NOT inspired by god.

by Comatose in

one of the first things i did when i was trying to face my doubts about the bibles inspiration was to read it.

as jws we are always told to read daily, but you can't get much sense of context or continuity when you read a chapter or two a day.

so, i knew if i was going to give up on the religion and/or the bible it would only be after i had actually read and researched.

adamah

Ding said-

Inspiration of the scriptures does not mean that the human authors were used as stenographers, so that each would be require to give their accounts in identical words. Wouldn't absolutely identical quotes with completely identical details (i.e. no individual differences regarding what to include or what points to emphasize) open the Bible to just claims of collusion, plagiarism, and redundancy?

No. It's pretty clear there IS redundancy in the NT (Mark being the first of the Gospels written, based off another unknown writing), as well as plagarism, etc.. It doesn't bother me one bit that there's SOME redundancy, although you'd think the deity who wants to take credit for designing double-stranded DNA to transmit genetic information could do a BIT BETTER job at encoding His messages to mankind, besides having it written in a language devoid of vowels, punctuation marks, etc. So God could design codons, transposons, reverse DNA/mRNA, etc, but he couldn't inspire writers to invent punctuation marks?

BTW, have you actually LOOKED at the raw Hebrew words which are used by translators as the frame used to fill in the gaps? It's a bit shocking, since most Bible readers assume that translation is like interpreting from English to German, when translating ancient Hebrew is more like translating Egyptian hieroglyphics. It's highly subjective, and a process fraught with error (to put it nicely).

My problem though, is really one of STYLE.

The Bible SHOULD be the slickest story ever written, at least 2x as fascinating (and with less continuity errors) than Tolkien's trilogy (and light-years ahead of CS Lewis' 'Chronicles of Narnia'). Problem is, as literature, the Bible is just not that good. It's just not.

Even setting aside the scientific squabbles with the parallel design of the Genesis creation account (Ch 1-2), I can't make it past the Garden of Eden before encountering a MAJOR continuity error that completely blows the Christian claim of Adam and Eve being "perfect", and hence the idea of Adam's 'original sin' (if Adam and Eve were not "perfect", then there's no need for salvation by Jesus).

Adam

64

2 she-bears kill 42 children

by confusedandalone in

jw
friends

we all remember this passage vividly: from there elisha went up to bethel.

while he was on his way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him.

"go up baldhead," they shouted, "go up baldhead!

adamah

Shirley said-

The Bible text is obviously an: interpolation; mistranslation; spurious text; the product of an inept and/or dishonest scribe; I don't like how it reads so I'll change it to suit my personal bias. Works for others here, why not me? p.s. God authorized my translation. I heard voices....

Well, if you're going to use the "but everyone ELSE is doing it!" line, combined with a Divine Appeal to Authority, well, THOSE two in combination ARE bullet-proof, air-tight. I call uncle, so you win!!

WT says:

The children evidently reflected the antagonistic attitude of their parents. How vital that parents teach their children to respect God’s representatives!

If only SOMEBODY would produce DVDs and illustrated comic books that would allow people to emotionally-abuse their little ones, right?

I wrote about the WT's scripture extraction used to make Ephesians 6 say something it actually doesn't say (more scripture-twisting):

http://awgue.weebly.com/article-listen-obey-or-be-turned-into-a-salt-lick.html

PS Coming soon to a door-mat near you: "The Illustrated Story of Elisha and the 42 Children."

Adam

10

NASA Finds Message From God on Mars

by His Excellency in

jw
friends

http://dailycurrant.com/2013/07/01/nasa-finds-message-from-god-on-mars/.

adamah

What, the divine name isn't Jehovah? No, it can't be, it can't be!

Seems like Mars might've had a 'lying scribe' problem, too?

22

Proof the bible was NOT inspired by god.

by Comatose in

one of the first things i did when i was trying to face my doubts about the bibles inspiration was to read it.

as jws we are always told to read daily, but you can't get much sense of context or continuity when you read a chapter or two a day.

so, i knew if i was going to give up on the religion and/or the bible it would only be after i had actually read and researched.

adamah

To give a modern example of similar insignificant differences in reporting, one reporter might say, "President Reagan today demanded that Mikhail Gorbachev demolish the Berlin Wall." A second might say, "President Reagan exhorted Secretary General Gorbachev to remove the wall." A third might say, "The crowd roared when Reagan exclaimed that Gorbachev should tear down the Berlin wall." A fourth might say, "Standing at the Brandenburg gate, Ronald Reagan exclaimed, 'Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!'"

There are a number of differences in those four accounts. Are any of the reports inconsistent regarding what really happened? Reading them, would you say, "The reporters' accounts are hopelessly contradictory. They can't agree on exactly who said what or whether he was really addressing the crowd or Gorbachev. The whole thing shakes my faith in the accuracy of reporters. If I can't trust them in this, I'm no longer going to believe a thing they say"?

Uh, no, because they're NOT contradictory: all of those are expressing the same general concept, rephrased in a different manner.

Your example fails, since the Gospel accounts offer completely different details tied to little things like what exactly were Jesus' last words (uttered RIGHT BEFORE his death)?

Not that it really matters: if someone makes it past Genesis 11 without getting the idea that there are human-inspired flaws in the Bible, they're likely not TRYING to be a critical thinker. As Jeff said on the Atheist Experience today, if you're looking for contradictions and continuity errors in the Bible, it's a 'target-rich environment'.

Adam

17

Can the elders stop you from entering the kingdom hall if

by label licker in

jw
friends

you continue to talk to the witlesses after being disfellowshipped.

we were at a funeral recently and disfellowshipped hubby would talk to anyone who who would come up to him and talk.

he said he wasn't going to be rude and that the rule of not talking to df ones don't apply to him.

adamah

labellicker said-

I do remember one time a gal who had alot of emotional issues from being df'd by these same elders that df'd hubby and they were laughing one time how they locked her out of the hall and she fell to the ground balling yet these jerks thought it funny to lock the doors on her.

That's exactly how it's going to be interpreted: the DFed desparately wants to get back inside the shelter of a KH, but have turned their backs on God, so oh, well: sucks to be you. It's the same idea conveyed in this image, depicting the Worldly who didn't repent and make it aboard Noah's ark, with NOah standing on the other side laughing at them:

So by protesting and crying (or forcing one's way in, only to have them kick you out) it's only REINFORCING that the tactic is working since it's playing into into their game. You have firsthand how THAT tactic fails.

Instead, it's imperative to get JWs to recognize the harm and damage THEY are experiencing by serving as the prison guards, the ones who are "only following orders". It's all true, and it's NOT a tactic: it's based on solid clinical studies of human behavior.

I wrote a blog article on the failure of any method that focuses on the pain experienced by the shunned: that only confirms to JWs what they want to hear: they're inflicting pain, and it's justified in the name of serving God.

http://awgue.weebly.com/countering-jw-shunning-how-the-implications-of-stanley-milgrams-work-may-suggest-using-a-different-approach.html

Anyone who hasn't read it yet (or didn't see the video of Milgram's work), I've got the YouTube video of Milgram's study embedded inside the article now.

Adam

33

Fading ... Do You Owe Witness Friends An Explanation?

by What Now? in

i'm curious about what you all think on this subject.

when my husband and i became irregular about a year ago, and then inactive around 5 months ago, i felt that it would be hypocritical to take advantage of the social side of the witness community if we weren`t going to meetings or in service.

we stopped entertaining (which we did quite regularly - theme parties, card parties, movie nights, big turkey dinners, breakfasts on holidays etc), and i slowly stopped accepting invitations for get togethers, playdates etc.

adamah

Well, congratulations for summing the moral courage of your convictions to take a stand against the WT!

As you say, fading is emotionally-strenuous, and takes as much of a toll which is no more painful than that inflicted by being all-in. At least those who stay in have the ability to use whatever denial and rationalizations they may use to soothe themselves, but a fader who knows TTATT really has no shelter, and that takes a toll.

As far as the outcome:

She said that she still thinks that I am a generous, kind person and a great mom, and that the door is always open, 6 months, 5 years from now. After that conversation, she immediately unfriended me on Instagram and Facebook.

As you found out, JWs aren't "real" friends (i.e. people who value YOU for what YOU are), but like some stranger who's a bore that you're forced to sit next to on a plane trip, but then becomes a stranger afterwards. There are no deep or true friendships possible amongst JWs, since there'd have to be a mass defection: that's not going to happen, and in the end leaving the WT is just as much as "it's every man for themselves" act which is part-and-parcel of being a JW.

JWs are essentially repressed emotionless zombies, for the most part, analogous to the walking dead (except their clothing is nicely-pressed). And they want to live in an ETERNITY in a gossipy-driven state like religious Stepford Wives?!

You've left with your dignity, integrity, and conscience intact, and that's something that cannot be said by those who continue to cave into the social pressure of giving into the base clique-like herd mentality, the worst side of human nature.

Adamah

22

Proof the bible was NOT inspired by god.

by Comatose in

one of the first things i did when i was trying to face my doubts about the bibles inspiration was to read it.

as jws we are always told to read daily, but you can't get much sense of context or continuity when you read a chapter or two a day.

so, i knew if i was going to give up on the religion and/or the bible it would only be after i had actually read and researched.

adamah

The different accounts are contradictory in mood and provide differing specific details, since authors at the time weren't concerned with reporting factual accounts (like modern-day reporters), but stressing a certain message, where each account contains details that are offered to fulfill a specific doctrinal point. Eg the account of the last-minute salvation of the thief is a demonstration of the parable of the owner of the vineyard, where the owner has the right to reward Johhny Latelys with the same 'pay' as those who put in a full day's labor. Same with Jesus' uttering "it is fulfilled" as his last words, a reference to the earlier words about 'not a word from the Torah becoming invalid until it (i.e. his 'mission' on Earth) was fulfilled". So not random details, but each with a specific meaning for their being mentioned.

If anything, trying to harmonize accounts by claiming inspiration from a single source only makes God appear to be suffering from multiple personality disorder.

Adam