Posts by adamah

340

Fallacies about Faith

by tec in

jw
friends

peace to you!.

this thread is about false things (some) atheists think theists believe.

this is not a thread about false things that atheists think about theists.

mrhhome said- adamah, I assume that you are talking about a scripture such as Deut 20. This is obviously a hard scripture. It has caused people to scratch their heads for almost two millenia. No, I do not condone slavery, nor do I condone killing gays.

Deuteronomy was written circa 600 BC about what someone (i.e. Moses) said God told them 800 years prior. Good reason alone to approach it with caution. Being a Methodist, I apply reason, tradition, and personal experience when studying scripture to discern God's will. Fortunately, none of which condone slavery or killing gays.

What, is God's "perfect laws" somehow NOT so perfect, after all?

Hmmm, it sounds to me like someone's using their "horribly flawed mortal (fallible) moral compass" to reach moral decisions anyway? Isn't that a sin?

Welcome to the club then, since that's EXACTLY what atheists do, as well; we know there is no evidence on which to build a belief in God, and morality has to be hashed out without resorting to ancient books written by uninspired men who lived in an ancient culture, where eg slavery and killing of gays was normative behavior (and backed by an appeal to authority).

mrhhome said- Is it "inspired"? I believe that the Bible is a story of people trying to understand God. It chronicles how their understanding of God evolved. Mistakes and all. As such, it is "inspired" even if it is not always pretty. No, I do not believe that God changed his mind, even though I have heard some Christians claim as such.

Clearly I meant "inspired by God", the same one who is talked about in the Good Book.

mrhhome said- There are books and books providing commentary on Deuteronomy. If you want, we can pick one that is mutually acceptable and begin a book review thread. Deuternomy has certainly generated considerable discussion in the church dating all the way back to Pauline letters.

I've read many books on the subject already, but sure, what did you have in mind?

mrhhome said- Sorry that I do not fit into one of your pigeon holes.

This may be a news-flash for you, but with 35,000 flavors of Xianity alone, there are plenty of pigeon holes to go around. In fact, given that many individuals in the same denomination may proclaim quite a divergence of beliefs, I'd say that it's more likely for there to be 7 billion concepts of God out there, which should tell you something: could it be that all these various images of God(s) are actually stemming from the images created in the minds of men? Ya' think?

Adam

340

Fallacies about Faith

by tec in

jw
friends

peace to you!.

this thread is about false things (some) atheists think theists believe.

this is not a thread about false things that atheists think about theists.

adamah

mrhhome said- adamah, have I ever advocated following Deuteronomical law?

Are one of those Xians who believe "all scriptures are inspired by God", or are you the type who ignores the immoral heinous actions ordered by the OT God and claims a New Covenant is in effect now, so you can just sweep the horrors of OT God under the rug as if it never happened?

If you're the latter type, you still must account for the fact that it's the same ol' deity in charge, the same one who commanded killing of gays and genocide. Are you the kind of believer like EdenOne, who's also willing to forego God's immutability (e.g. Num. 23:19; 1 Sam. 15:29; Ps. 102:26; Mal. 3:6; 2 Tim. 2:13; Heb. 6:17–18; Jam. 1:17) and hope that somehow He's changed?

43

Carrie Underwood tweets, thanking God for successful Sound of Music performance

by adamah in

after a live 3 hour performance, the "american idol" winner tweets,.

"glory to god tonight...i couldn't be more proud.

what a tough thing to pull off and we did it!

adamah

Lisa said- I think some people never like remakes so they wouldn't have liked it no matter how it turned out. My husband is like that, he never likes song covers or movie remakes, they just seem wrong to him.

Your husband seems confused, if he thinks it's simply a remake of the movie, made for TV: it's not. The teleplay was based on the stage version, which inspired the movie with Julie Andrews.

Lisa said- And then to complain about her expressing thanks to God is petty. She's a believer, get over it. Why is she not as entitled to express her beliefs as much as anyone else?

She's apparently as free to express her beliefs, as I am to express mine. I think she's fully-aware of the benefits of playing to her crowd/fan-base, which is exactly what she's doing with her tweets (as RVW said, she had a hit with "Jesus at the wheel" which was a foray into the Xian music thing).

43

Carrie Underwood tweets, thanking God for successful Sound of Music performance

by adamah in

after a live 3 hour performance, the "american idol" winner tweets,.

"glory to god tonight...i couldn't be more proud.

what a tough thing to pull off and we did it!

adamah

FHN said-

On another note, I wonder why people feel pressured to thank their gods to the public.

Well, you and I both know the answer to that one:

Some Xians believe Jesus performed miraculous works and healings, and deflected all praise for performing these miraculous acts from himself by saying they actually point to the Glory of his Father; these Xian entertainers similarly feel compelled to point the praise away from themselves by claiming their non-miraculous works point to the glory of God and Jesus.

Xians really don't understand how this only makes them come off as egotistical and not humble, since they assume there is profuse praise being offered for their non-miraculous 'works'; in essence they're comparing their performance to the miracles of Jesus which requires a TON of hubris.

Audrey MacDonald's singing and acting was more impressive than Underwood's, but was no more 'miraculous' than Carrie's performance; it was inspired by tons of professionalism, practice, and stage experience.

340

Fallacies about Faith

by tec in

jw
friends

peace to you!.

this thread is about false things (some) atheists think theists believe.

this is not a thread about false things that atheists think about theists.

adamah

FHN asked:

God cannot be perfectly just and perfectly merciful.

Why not? Do you mean, Tec's god? Do you mean any god?

'Perfect justice' implies rendering punishment in accord with prescribed legal procedure, with no room for lenience; 'perfect mercy' requires showing lenience from justice, so the two are fundamentally at odds.

The contradictory nature depends on what is actually meant by the adjective "perfect": it's not contradictory, if it's only meant to imply that a "perfect balance" can be struck between justice and mercy. But on their own, 'perfect justice' and 'perfect mercy' are fundamentally incompatible.

340

Fallacies about Faith

by tec in

jw
friends

peace to you!.

this thread is about false things (some) atheists think theists believe.

this is not a thread about false things that atheists think about theists.

adamah

Mrhhome said-

I do, however, make a clear distinction between the actions and the people. With the exception of a few extreme cases, I would not label someone immoral, because we all fall somewhere on the spectrum. It is not my place to judge a person. However, I will (am obligated to?) decide what actions are right and wrong.

Uh, no, you're not.

In fact, that's the entire POINT of claiming that God-given morality found in the Bible is superior to man's, since mankind's moral compass is said to be fallible and unreliable.

But are you prepared to publicly state that God was immoral for saying that owning other humans is A-OK, and stoning homosexuals to death are moral laws?

Your morality is inferior to that of non-believers, since I can easily state that such actions are clearly immoral, without even a moment's hesitation. All people are human beings, not mere chattel to dispose of as you wish, or if their actions and private behaviors offend your sensibilities.

You cannot publicly state the same, since condemning God's past actions publicly is second-guessing a prior act of God's will, which you believe would be a sin.

24

Why Evolution Is True--something that scares me

by DS211 in

jw
friends

so im reading "why evokution is true" by coyne and the page im on is talking about darwin and natural selection:.

"but natural selection was also the part of evolutionary theory con- sidered most revolutionary in darwins time, and it is still unsettling to many.

selection is both revolutionary and disturbing for the same reason: it explains apparent design in nature by a purely materialistic process that doesnt require creation or guidance by supernatural forces.

adamah

Phizzy said-

Natural Selection as part of a totally random, and non-sentient universe is far less scary than the myths, legends and downright lies I was taught as a Jehovah's Witness.

The irony is many believers mistakenly think evolution is all about "survival of the fittest", when it's not so: evolution is actually about "survival of those who actually manage to survive", in other words, it's not just 'the fittest' who survive, but sometimes even the most poorly-adapted (mal-adapted) manage to hang on to pass on their genes, depending on the 'selection pressure'. In fact, that's part-and-parcel of the process of 'natural selection': having a range of phenotypes available on the palette on which to differentially select.

In fact, Xian theology IS actually all about "survival of the fittest", where one needs to be 'spiritually-fit' by accepting Jesus into their hearts to acheive personal salvation!

The 'testing ground' for Xianity is viewed as this Earthly existence, where only the cream-of-the-crop of the souls (i.e. the fittest) who manage to accept Jesus as their personal Savior are going to rewarded with eternal Heavenly existence (or if JWs, eternal life).

Ironic, no?

47

New here and having ah ha moments!

by Angus Beef in

jw
friends

what made you realize it was time to go?

i've been having health problems for the last few years and instead of any help, i'm listed as spiritually weak and of course associations is only my kids and husband.

all the good jw's have moved to other congregations and are doing well.

adamah

Welcome aboard, Angus Beef.

Angus Beef said-How do I go back this week and not let the elders figure me out! How can you fake it?

If you had a way to read minds, I suspect you'd find there's many others in the KH in your same situation: they face being cut off from their loved ones if they leave the group and their loved ones don't. It's a very-large game of 'Mexican stand-off', except instead of handguns, everyone is equipped with their shun gun:

Getting baptized is the price of admission into the game (although not required: non-baptized can be shunned), and the GB are not allowed to change the dysfunctional game, at the risk of being shunned if they tried (DFed for apostacy, as GB member Ray Franz was).

The ROOT of the problem is the Bible, since shunning IS justified scripturally, and Jesus repeatedly said to place God above one's own family members and how his followers should hate their parents (so much for Xian "family values"). JWs are only following Jesus' orders, since they believe the Bible is the word of God.

It's extortion, and you're held captive since you're being coerced with facing the loss of your family (alienation of affection): that's the JW game, in a nutshell. It's a perfectly-legal form of extortion, since it's considered a practice of religion.

Angus Beef said- When I first started studing I prayed to God not to let me get involved with a false religion, I don't know what happened there! 20 something years ago!

Well, there's part of your problem: you believe in supernatural 'things', and lots of good that prayer did, huh? The very phrase "false religion" is a misnomer that serves the purposes of ALL religions, since it implies there IS a "true religion", a classic example of creating a false dilemma.

ANY God belief, whether Ahuru Mazda or Jehovah, is not based on rationality, but emotional needs; letting your emotions rule your life is just asking for trouble. Unfortunately there are no quick answers, but congrats on taking the first step towards awakening to TTATT, and not simply accepting someone else's views on how to live your life which is being forced down your throat.

Adam

17

No wonder most of of you guys think us jw's are idiots

by nowwhat? in

as a teenager back in the 1970's i once asked the question, how can they declare peace and security if the king of the north [soviet union] is to storm with many chariots?

i got the "what kind of question is that?

" response.. then in the 1980's i said "if it wasn'nt for the 1914 generation dying off, i don't see the slightest indication that babylon the great is going to be destroyed anytime soon.

adamah

WMF said-

With a track record of nil for successful prophecy, it takes huge amounts of spin and revisionist history to pacify the rank and file.

Actually, it takes very little effort, since it'll quickly be forgotten and anyone who asks about it is looked down upon as being "weak in their faith", since the topic of changed doctrines is verboten amongst JWs (or dismissed with "they're only human", which is missing the point that they claim to be spirit-directed by God).

They don't even have to engage in revisionism per se, since all faithful will simply let them off the hook, since JWs have to give themselves permission to see the ugly truth.

N. Korea's Kim Jong Un apparently kicked his uncle out of the inner-circle recently, and already he's been removed from official photos and video documentaries:

http://nypost.com/2013/12/09/kim-jong-uns-uncle-erased-from-the-government/

That's one of the 'benefits' of adopting a belief system where you only believe what you want to believe (or, what you're told to believe): the GB is doing all the tiresome and laborious work of thinking for the rank-and-file, so they free up their minds to fantasize about their 'reward' in the New System.

36

Quite an interesting first meeting with my Therapist.

by truthseekeriam in

jw
friends

the moment i mentioned jehovah's witnesses he headed over to his file cabinet and handed me this print out.. .

dear beloved one, .

i see your loneliness and fears.

adamah

Rebel said-

Red flags are going up for me. It's unethical to give religious stuff to your patients. Doubly so when that patient is presenting to you for help related to religious cults.

Same here....

Unfortunately, many "therapists" are quite willing to cross the line and insert religion into their "treatment", which is quite controversial.

Run, don't walk, and find another therapist who's more interested in YOU and YOUR issues, and doesn't feel the need to "count time" on your dime.

TSIA said- I also told him I have absolutely no interest in religion period!

Well that's good, as he may have misread you, and you likely just needed to set boundaries with him upfront. If he continues, I'd say seek another therapist.

But good for you for seeking help resolving post-JW issues!

Adam