Posts by robhic

9

USE EDUCATION TO PRAISE JEHOVAH outline

by ackack in

use education to praise jehovah no 146 (11/00)

note to the speaker:.

present this material in an appealing and reasonable way.

robhic

I especially liked the way they started off citing bible verses and then went to citing WTS publications. They went from putting "1Tim 4:6" to "W 9/95" (or whatever) at the end of the sentences. Pretty arrogant.

9

How about a reasoning book for JW's?

by ackack in

was just thinking about collaboratively writing a reasoning book around common jw errors.

anyone feel like adding/fixing some of this up?

what are some other common objections you've run up against?1914.

robhic

Is that what this book is? Can anyone comment who has read it?

The book "Reasoning From the Scriptures with Jehovah's Witnesses" is more-or-less what you'd expect from a fundy-type christian guy thumping his bible in response to the JWs thumping of theirs. I read the book and it does contain a lot of good reference material and compares and contrasts JW teachings with what the bible (not a NWT) actually says. Of course he adds his fundy-christian take on things ( like the trinity) too.

If you're looking for technical and some subjective information, references and quotes, this book is good. If you are bored to tears by another religious discussion and "My bible is better than your bible" type book I'd say use your own discretion. Can't hurt.

Robert

7

Second Chance?

by RU Saved in

does this quote mean that basically everyone will be resurected and then have another chance to learn about god during the 1000 year millennium?

included in the earthly resurrection will be (1) the faithful witnesses of jehovah who died before christ did, (2) the billions of other people who will be brought back in the "resurection of judgement" and (3) the people of good will who today take their stand on god's side but who through sickness, old age or another cause happen to die before armegeddon is fought.

it is thought that the earthly resurrection will be spread out over a period of time so that all these people after being resurected on earth can be taken care of in an orderly way, and without confusion.

robhic

Here are a couple of items I have saved in regard to this question. Looks pretty much like they're saying you have to be a JW to survive:

From The Watchtower, September 1, 1989, p. 19:

"Remaining Organized for Survival Into the Millennium":

Only Jehovah’s Witnesses, those of the anointed remnant and the "great crowd," as a united organization under the protection of the Supreme Organizer, have any Scriptural hope of surviving the impending end of this doomed system dominated by Satan the Devil.

(Revelation 7:9-17; 2 Corinthians 4:4) They will make up the "flesh" that Jesus Christ said would be saved through the worst tribulation of all human history. As it was in the days of Noah, said Jesus, so it would be in the day when He would be revealed. Inside the ark that took many years of organized effort to complete, only eight human souls survived the global Deluge. They survived as a united family group. (Matthew 24:22, 37-39; Luke 17:26-30) Noah’s wife corresponds to the bride of Christ, and his sons and daughters-in-law to Jesus’ present-day "other sheep," who have grown into an increasing great crowd, the final proportions of which we do not now know. (John 10:16) For survival into the Millennium under the Greater Noah, Jesus Christ, they have to remain organized with the anointed remnant, "the chosen ones" on account of whom the days of the "great tribulation" will be cut short.

From The Watchtower, December 1, 1999, p. 18:

Be Happy Readers of the Book of Revelation

The message is clear: If we want to survive Armageddon, we must remain spiritually alert and keep the symbolic garments that identify us as faithful Witnesses of Jehovah God.

Is this not what they are implying/shouting out? And I have many more quotes.

Robert

12

Ancestors of Ne-Hi-A-Mi-Ah Perhaps?

by bavman in

.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/10/1012_051012_hobbits.html

.

robhic

Maybe they're the descendents of the apes that Adam had sex with in the Garden of Eden, to find a suitable mate (but no suitable mate was found among the animals that God brought to him). Maybe that can explain all the apeman fossils!

It at least explains a lot of (most?) politicians....

13

HAHAHA! New "Organized" book.

by Odrade in

i just finished looking over the .pdf of the new organized to do jehovah's will book.

at the end, like the others, are the "questions.

and the answers!

robhic

Not being a JW it is sometimes hard for me to grasp how people of normal intellect could get hoodwinked by the insipid drivel of the WTB&TS. Please do not take this as criticism or condemnatiion of anyone who is or was a JW. I've read enough here to know that they are a sneaky bunch that resort to using peoples' weaknesses and brainwashing techniques to achieve their goals. Tough to resist when you think they have something that you might be looking for. Look no further than the "Manchurian Candidate."

That said, I went and looked at the "Organized" book using the Wikipedia link provided. Holy cow! What a bunch of self-serving double-speak. This has got to be one of the most self-congratulatory, "We are the greatest!" bits of self-serving literature since the Israelites wrote the bible as a "rah-rah hooray for us" tome all those centuries ago. But I especially liked this part (my gag-reflex wouldn't allow me to read too far):

USE OF RELIGIOUS CORPORATIONS

During these last days of this wicked system of things, the belongings of the Master have increased abundantly throughout all the earth. This has placed a heavy responsibility on ’the faithful slave.’ In discharging the responsibility to provide spiritual food at the proper time and in order to get the good news of the Kingdom preached before the end comes, the slave class has formed certain agencies, or legal entities. It has proved to be the course of wisdom to organize certain corporations that are recognized by the laws of various countries. These religious corporations own and operate printing facilities that produce and distribute Bibles and Bible literature worldwide for use in the Kingdom ministry.
These corporations are exclusively devoted to advancing the interests of true worship in the earth. All these legal instrumentalities cooperate with one another. Such legal corporations are used to facilitate the preaching of the good news worldwide and to care for the spiritual needs of the entire congregation of God in all parts of the earth.

Say what? I don't remember the early christians incorporating anything. Jeez, so much for "Jesus Christ Superstar." Hello "Jesus Christ CEO"!!!

And they just had to reiterate the "last days" and the "wicked system" bullshit. The wicked system is what is providing their self-serving financial corporate excesses. Loosen that bite on the hand that feeds you, I say!

Simply amazing.

2

Would like opinions, additions and subtractions -- help needed

by robhic in

i had seen and saved a little "test" to ask jws about beliefs and their actually being bible-based.

just for an exercise, i took the "eight questions" list and added (where i could find them at "quotes" site) the quotes and cites from the wt publications that seem to say these things.

please look this over and give me a critique of the wt quotes i matched up, feel free to add some that might be better and please supply ones where i couldn't find appropriate quotes.

robhic

I had seen and saved a little "test" to ask JWs about beliefs and their actually being bible-based. Just for an exercise, I took the "Eight Questions" list and added (where I could find them at "Quotes" site) the quotes and cites from the WT publications that seem to say these things. Please look this over and give me a critique of the WT quotes I matched up, feel free to add some that might be better and please supply ones where I couldn't find appropriate quotes.

1. That God has an "organization" on earth—one of the kind here at issue— and uses a Governing Body to direct it? Where does the Bible make such statements?

*** Watchtower 1955 June 1 p.333 Part 11: Restoration of Theocratic Organization ***

Similarly today the power of appointment of all servants in congregations rightfully rests with the governing body of the "faithful and discreet slave" class, which is under the direct supervision of Christ Jesus at the temple.

________________________________________________________________________
2. That the heavenly hope is not open to anyone and everyone who will embrace it, that it has been replaced by an earthly hope (since 1935) and that Christ's words in connection with the emblematic bread and wine, "Do this in remembrance of me," do not apply to all persons putting faith in his ransom sacrifice? What scriptures make such statements?

*** Watchtower 1997 October 1 p.23 Grateful for a Long Life in Jehovah's Service ***

Confident in Kingdom Hope

In 1935 we came to understand that the "great crowd" was not a secondary heavenly class. We learned that it instead represents a class that survives the great tribulation and has the opportunity of living forever in Paradise on earth. (Revelation 7:9-14) With this new understanding, some who had partaken of the Memorial emblems realized that theirs was an earthly hope, and they discontinued partaking.

________________________________________________________________________

3. That the "faithful and discreet slave" is a "class" composed of only certain Christians, that it cannot apply to individuals, and that it operates through a Governing Body? Again, where does the Bible make such statements?

*** Watchtower 1967 October 1 p.590 Finding Freedom with Jehovah's Visible Organization ***

Jehovah poured out his spirit upon them and assigned them the responsibility of serving as his sole visible channel, through whom alone spiritual instruction was to come. Those who recognize Jehovah's visible theocratic organization, therefore, must recognize and accept this appointment of the "faithful and discreet slave" and be submissive to it.(Also see #1 above)

________________________________________________________________________

4. That Christians are separated into two classes, with a different relationship to God and Christ, on the basis of an earthly or a heavenly destiny? Where is this said?

*** Watchtower November 15, 2001 p.19 ***

'No Calamity Will Befall Us'

[…]

14 Anointed Christians are like alien residents living in tents apart from this system of things. Not even a plague draws near their tent. Whether our hope is heavenly or earthly, we are no part of the world, and we are not infected by such spiritually deadly plagues as its immorality, materialism, false religion and worship of the 'wild beast' and it's 'image', the United Nations.

________________________________________________________________________

5. That the 144,000 in Revelation must be taken as a literal number and that the "great crowd" does not and cannot refer to persons serving in God's heavenly courts? Where do we find those statements in the Bible?

________________________________________________________________________

6. That blood transfusions are not acceptable but different blood fractions are? Where is this written? Who makes these decisions?

*** Watchtower 2000 June 15 p.31 Questions from Readers ***

Questions from Readers

• Do Jehovah's Witnesses accept any medical products derived from blood?

[...]

Such therapies are not transfusions of those primary components; they usually involve parts or fractions thereof. Should Christians accept these fractions in medical treatment? We cannot say. The Bible does not give details, so a Christian must make his own conscientious decision before God.

____________________________________________________________________

7. That the calendar year of 1914 was the time when Christ was first officially enthroned as King toward all the earth and that that calendar date marks the start of his parousia? Where?

*** The Watchtower, September 15, 1901, p. 2876 ***

The culmination of the trouble in October, 1914, is clearly marked in the Scriptures; and we are bound therefore to expect a beginning of that severe trouble not later than 1910; — with severe spasms between now and then.

____________________________________________________________________

8. That when the Bible at Hebrews 11:16 says that men such as Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were "reaching out for a better place, that is, one belonging to heaven," this could not possibly mean that they would have heavenly life? Where?

____________________________________________________________________________

14

The Cross

by I-CH-TH-U-S in

i know there has probably been many discussions on this and ive been given answers with some confusing statements from jw's as well as proffessors and i just want it simplified (if that is possible), i want to know if it is possible to prove the crucifixion was on a cross (in simple terms) .

so far my own personal research which involves the biblical aspect combined with the scientific area has led me to believe the cross.

my research: .

robhic

I didn't write this but had it saved for reference. Good info plus some websites:

http://www.forananswer.org/Top_JW/jwcross.pdf

QUOTE..........MISQUOTE:

In its "Reasoning From the Scriptures" book, the Watchtower Society quotes from several sources to support their "torture stake" theory.

These publications not only seem authoritative, but also seem to support the Society's claims regarding the "torture stake" rather than the traditional cross. However, unbeknownst to many, the Watchtower Society has not been honest in its quotations of its sources.

For example, one publication that the Society quotes in its "Reasoning..." book on page 89 is The Imperial Bible Dictionary. Below is the Watchtower quotation, with the words that they omitted in RED:

"The Imperial Bible Dictionary acknowledges this, saying: "The Greek word for cross, (stauros), properly signified a stake, an upright pole, or piece of paling, on which anything might be hung, or which might be used in impaling (fencing in) a piece of ground. But a modification was introduced as the dominion and usages of Rome extended themselves through Greek-speaking countries. Even amongst the Romans, the crux (from which the word cross is derived) appears to have been originally an upright pole, and always remained the more prominent part. But from the time that it began to be used as an instrument of punishment, a traverse piece of wood was commonly added...about the period of the Gospel Age, crucifixion was usually accomplished by suspending the criminal on a cross piece of wood."

===========================================================

http://www.frugalsites.net/jesus/crucifixion.htm

(http://www.freeminds.org/doctrine/cross.htm)

Below are 6 cites taken from 12 in the Bible in which the word crucify (verb: Crucify to kill by affixing to a cross) is specifically used:

Matthew 27:31

And after that they had mocked him, they took the robe off from him, and put his own raiment on him, and led him away to crucify him.

Mark 15:13

And they cried out again, Crucify him.

Mark 15:20

And when they had mocked him, they took off the purple from him, and put his own clothes on him, and led him out to crucify him.

Mark 15:27

And with him they crucify two thieves; the one on his right hand, and the other on his left.

John 19:6

When the chief priests therefore and officers saw him, they cried out, saying, Crucify him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Take ye him, and crucify him: for I find no fault in him

To the Hebrews 6:6

If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Crucifixion:

Crucify is a verb meaning to kill by crucifixion. Crucifixion is explained below by a scholar and student of Biblical matters and supported by archaeolgical and historical fact:

Roman crucifixion was a gruesome form of capital punishment. The victim suffered excruciating pain for hours, even days, before the rigors of the cross finally snuffed out his life. In its most common form, the cross consisted of two pieces of wood. The upright, called the stipes, was permanently fixed in the ground (1). The crosspiece, called the patibulum, was carried to the site of execution by the condemned man (2). This task was in itself an ordeal, since the patibulum was a stout beam weighing more than a hundred pounds (3). After the crucifixion, the crosspiece was taken down and removed from the site, perhaps as a precaution against thievery (4). Literary sources suggest that the familiar picture of Jesus' cross is inaccurate. It is likely that the crosspiece rested on the upright, instead of being fastened to it at some distance below the top. That is, the cross of Jesus probably had the shape of a capital "T" (5).

In 1968, archaeologists discovered the remains of a Jew who had been crucified during the era of Christ (6). It was possible from the skeletal evidence to determine exactly how the man had been fastened to a cross. The new information, debunking many old guesses about the method of crucifixion, left no doubt that this form of punishment was hideously and cruelly efficient. A crude iron spike from five to seven inches long had been driven through each wrist (7). Also, after both feet with heels and toes together had been turned sideways against the cross, a third spike had been driven through a board and then through both heels (8). When the man hung on his cross, the lower part of his body must have been twisted to one side. (Josh McDowell, The Resurrection Factor (San Bernardino, Calif.: Here's Life Publishers, 1981), 45. (http://www.uncc.edu/jdtabor/crucifixion.html)

49

586 607 Jerusalem destroyed.

by PoppyR in

hi guys, new!

and i'm sure this has been covered, but i find the site has no search for me to look, so sorry if you've discussed it to death.

for the first time last night i came across information about 586 being the actual year jerusalem was destroyed.

robhic

Yes! Just when I was afraid the phrase "celebrated WT scholars" would pass out of general usage. I love this guy. He sounds so...how do you say...North Korean Ministry of Information.
SNG

I wonder if "Baghdad Bob" would also be a good comparative choice? Remember how the Iraqis were winning the war from the outset?

Robert

49

586 607 Jerusalem destroyed.

by PoppyR in

hi guys, new!

and i'm sure this has been covered, but i find the site has no search for me to look, so sorry if you've discussed it to death.

for the first time last night i came across information about 586 being the actual year jerusalem was destroyed.

robhic

And let's not forget one of the all-time best and most definitive posts on the subject -- Alleymom's K.I.S.S. article.

It's like the "kiss of death!" http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/55372/1.ashx

Robert

9

Christians, Jews, and Muslims are Wrong

by ICBehindtheCurtain in

hey guys, i found this and thought i'de share it, it's very "politically incorrect", this guy has balls, to say all this, there's a couple of things he got wrong, like that god whispere in muhammad's ear, when it was supposedly an angel that appeard to him, and the shellfish thing, when shrimp are really cretaceous.

enjoy!!.

hey this is my first topic, post.. if you're a christian, muslim or jew - you are wrong .

robhic

Very interesting piece. I have thought, myself, what folly it is to subscibe to the social customs and practices of some 2000+ year old goat-herders. It was fine --BACK THEN! -- but this is the New Millenium. Lighten up.

Do you still travel by donkey or camel, or do you drive or fly? Do you light lamps at home or turn on the switch? Capture some fetching-looking women (after making sure they weren't someone's wife and were still virgins...) for a kick-ass sex party? Of course not! It's 2005 and we should live by modern standards.

OK, not killing and stealing is good. Not committing adultery is good. Lying is still bad and paying some hommage to the people who raised your snivelling ass from childhood is pretty realistic, too.

But all the other tedious and archaeic rules need to be viewed as just that ... 2000+ year old rules!

Robert (Mr. Modern Day Guy)