Posts by starScream

30

Resurection of "Can any believer answer this?"

by Chap in

hi all.. there was an interesting thread a while back that i have a few things to add to.

i am new so i didn't know if anyone would see a post i would put there since the thread happened a few months ago.

it is going to take a while to put all my thoughts on the subject.

starScream

I want to retract my statement that "God's creation sucks"

Good. No sensible person would believe that for very long.

things should've continued running smoothly; why didn't they? Free will?

Rebellion caused things to go wrong. Free will was a mandatory perameter for what God wanted out of his creations. He wanted voluntary service.

Well some part of his "perfect" and "good" creatures wanted something "bad".

It's not that they wanted something bad. They thought that their ideas were better (or gooder). They thought that they could know better than God, like you are doing now.

How could a perfect being created from a perfect God seek "bad" things

They didn't seek bad things. They rebelled. This rebellion allowed them to change themselves from what God had made. They were no longer what God had made. Then they sought bad things.

God himself regretted making us

I have not yet seen this demonstrated.

that in itself shows that he questioned his own work.

I have not seen that demonstrated and if God questioned his own work he would be considering the possibilty that he was wrong. God can do no wrong. He is too smart to make a mistake.

Don't you think if he tried this again he'd change some things?

The only thing you have successfully brought into question is the virtue in the gift of free will. If God does not grant free will then God has robots, not sentient beings. Sentient beings are much more wonderful that robots. Robots can only be programmed to love. That would not be genuine love. Since God is a God of love, he would not be satisfied with that creation. So he would have no choice but to create the same things he did before and run the risk of rebellion. Once this rebellion is proved wrong beyond all question the remaining creatures can attest to God's true authority and the anarchy and misery that rebellion leads to. These creatures can then act on an authority given by God to crush any rebellion should it arise, if ever.

If so, that shows that something, however minute, was flawed.

I'm sorry, that is incorrect, unless you can show something that should have been changed.

If this turned out to be the case, then God is in fact to blame. . .

That is in fact not the case. I'm sorry but you just haven't shown anything that God could have done to create intelligent creatures, with freewill, and no chance of a rebellion. The only objection you can raise at this point is that 'freewill is evil' and only God should have it. Feel free to start over.

35

Does God define "right and wrong" or is there an intrinsic 'good' ?

by Simon in

i don't personally believe in a 'god' but i wonder for those who do .... is there an intrinsic "right and wrong" or moral code that would exist whether or not there was a god?.

to put it another way, is what we believe is "right or wrong" based on whatever god decides is right or wrong (ie.

he set's the standard) or is it an intrinisc thing that he also must adhere to in order to be thought of as 'good'.. if god has to adhere and go along with some intrinsic value system then does this effect any claims to be omnipotent and always good?

starScream

Damn, your fundamentalist ramblings remind me of someone

This is a fundamentalist rambling? :

So God is not real becuase his laws make sense?

This was basically what he was implying.

I believe that when God was rejected .....they called this wisdom.

This is just a reversal to Sardon's implication that they considered themselves wise for inventing God. I am merely pointing out that people consider themselves wise for rejecting God.

To answer your question, No, I am not some other Star name. This is the only name I post under.

35

Does God define "right and wrong" or is there an intrinsic 'good' ?

by Simon in

i don't personally believe in a 'god' but i wonder for those who do .... is there an intrinsic "right and wrong" or moral code that would exist whether or not there was a god?.

to put it another way, is what we believe is "right or wrong" based on whatever god decides is right or wrong (ie.

he set's the standard) or is it an intrinisc thing that he also must adhere to in order to be thought of as 'good'.. if god has to adhere and go along with some intrinsic value system then does this effect any claims to be omnipotent and always good?

starScream

Do not Steal, Do not Kill, Do Not Covet your Neighbours Arse!! .... I feel that any society would reach these same conclusions without having to be told by a 'Higher Power'.

So God is not real becuase his laws make sense?

I think when God was invented.....They called this wisdom.

I believe that when God was rejected .....they called this wisdom.

30

Resurection of "Can any believer answer this?"

by Chap in

hi all.. there was an interesting thread a while back that i have a few things to add to.

i am new so i didn't know if anyone would see a post i would put there since the thread happened a few months ago.

it is going to take a while to put all my thoughts on the subject.

starScream

Don’t you think that his creation sucks?

I have seen his creations and they are awesome. I have yet to do better.

Don’t you think that his creation sucks?

On judgement day maybe he can use you to pick out the ones that he should get rid of. And while your at it you can tell him he sucks and then prove why he sucks and see if anyone agrees with you.

Is this to mean that the Biblical God knew what he was doing? Is doesn’t seem to be the case.

If he didn't know what he was doing the devil's way would rival his. No one knew what would be the result of the devil's rebellion. 1/3 of heaven agreed that the devil was right. It was a very popular rebellion.

So, he knows what’s right, isn’t that enough?

Apparently not, you still think he's wrong.

God killed Adam and Eve didn’t He?

Wrong, they committed suicide. God told them that if they disobeyed they would die. God didn't do anything to them.

He’s killing ALL of us to prove some demented point!

God killed someone you know?

Didn’t people get stoned in Biblical times via God’s mandate to prove a point?

Are you an anarchist? If the law does not enforce itself what is the purpose of the law? When I rob a bank and kill people in the process will you present this arguement for the jury on the basis that the law is demented? Can I kill you for fun because the law that says I can't is demented? If I kill you would you want me to be punished? (BTW I like you im not trying to be a jerk).

Why didn’t he do the same with Satan an use his death as an example?

We have already gone over this. 1/3 of heaven agreed with Satan. If God simply killed them all then the next rebellion would say "I don't want to serve this God. He is simply a tyrant that rules by force." God wants people to serve him because they have faith that his way is the only one that is good and we are fortunate to have him.

His creation doesn’t work properly and it hurts itself.

God created it to work properly. I have already stated that freewill was a gift. Are you saying freewill sucks?

I think you missed my point. If the Biblical account is to be believed then let’s hold Satan, Adam and Eve accountable since they committed the sin.

I think you missed mine. The next rebellion would say "So what? What is wrong with sin. God is the one that casued the problem when they sinned. Sin is not wrong. God is wrong." We are not suffering because of God. The rebels posed a challenge. The rebels are proving themselves wrong. They will be held accountable.

If a rapist chose to have children, do we punish them for their father’s crimes?

No. They are responsible for the crimes they commit. But as it turns out (P.S.A.) parents who use drugs have chilldrean who use drugs.

Man (made in God’s image) are evil, so the point has been proven, but why hasn’t God changed things?

(Nice indirect indictment) John Lennon and his lackies are not satisfied. They think that if you can just Imagine a perfect world, we can make it happen. I agree that the point has been proven. Not everyone is convinced that it has. I'm sure the devil would endorse John Lennon's request for more time.

no, we didn’t get to choose anything. If we did, I somehow missed the vote.

Here was your vote:

Don’t you think that his creation sucks? Man (made in God’s image) are evil. I blame the all knowing Creator

This is my vote: God is right. The devil is wrong. Adam was wrong. Eve was wrong. The rebels have demonstrated this.

As for a way to prove the Devil wrong, he could’ve simply told the Devil it would fail and since God can’t lie, Satan would’ve been forced to believe him

Show me the devil's track record for believing and having faith in what God says. The devil whole case revolves aroung trapping God in a lie. The devil is still looking for a way to call God a liar.

30

Resurection of "Can any believer answer this?"

by Chap in

hi all.. there was an interesting thread a while back that i have a few things to add to.

i am new so i didn't know if anyone would see a post i would put there since the thread happened a few months ago.

it is going to take a while to put all my thoughts on the subject.

starScream

What about the rest of us? We had no choice and yet still suffer. How is this fair?

So you want God to rule because you see that we suck at it? Man is causing us to suffer. We have inherrited a world that has been corrupted by the devil and man. God gracefully gave man and satan a perfect heaven and a perfect world. We did not deserve a perfect world, yet we still had one. We have ruined it and kicked God out by rebelling. Blame man. Blame the devil.

Now I will pre-empt the next challenge which is, it still wouldn't be a perfect world even if man acted much better. This is true. Unfortunately this contradicts another challenge againt God that already exists. According to John Lennon and his lackies if you can Imagine a perfect world maybe we can make it happen. God still has to let them be proven wrong. Man will not stop challenging God untill he fails. This should be obvious by now. God must satisfy all challenges so that he doesn't give the appearence of being a tyrant.

30

Resurection of "Can any believer answer this?"

by Chap in

hi all.. there was an interesting thread a while back that i have a few things to add to.

i am new so i didn't know if anyone would see a post i would put there since the thread happened a few months ago.

it is going to take a while to put all my thoughts on the subject.

starScream

I would have done things way different as God.

There is no shortage of people or devil's that think they know better than God. The Devil beat you to rebellion. He stood up before anyone else to challenge God. God must deal with his challenge first. So take a number, get in line, and then on Judgement day you can tell God how wrong he is all you want. Maybe he can convince you better than I can that he is smarter than all of us.

You have to understand that once people and devil's start posing challenges to God he is going to have a tough time satisfying everyone because each challenge will require completely different actions to satisfy the challenge and prove the challenge false. There are now countless numbers of people that challenge the way God dealt with challenge.

This may seem like a copout, but God can do whatever he wants, and no one would know. If this isn't a good idea, then how about punish the perpetrators only

How does killing someone who poses a challenge prove them wrong? People have accused God on this board as being a tyrant. How would simply killing the perpetrator on the spot prove that that person's way was not a good way?

The whole thing about us inheriting sin is a bunch of BS. We did nothing to deserve punishment for THEIR sins.

Once again. Lets make sure we don't blame anyone except God. Adam chose to go along with Eve instead of God. So you would have God just kill them? What has God proven? That he can kill someone if they go against him? Adam and Eve chose to have kids. If you can't accept the fact that man inherrited sin then you are just in denial. Man has proven himself quite evil. This goes back to what the devil posed to God. God had a perfect plan for man and man chose his own course just like the devil. God must prove the devil wrong. Man is proving the devil wrong for God. When man finally fails completely God will get his chance to show that his way works better than what the devil came up with.

If you want to blame someone for your situation, that is fine. Just make sure it is the right person. You have still yet to come up with another way for God to prove the devil wrong. Simply killing them and wiping out our memories so that we don't challenge the rebellion is a form of deception. God does not need to be a coward. He knows he is right. He has no reason to be afraid of a challenge.

30

Resurection of "Can any believer answer this?"

by Chap in

hi all.. there was an interesting thread a while back that i have a few things to add to.

i am new so i didn't know if anyone would see a post i would put there since the thread happened a few months ago.

it is going to take a while to put all my thoughts on the subject.

starScream

I'd create man, let him be influenced by the devil. Then I'd proceed to inflict punishment on his descendants for the next 6,000 years.

Man's suffering is at the hands of man. I already stated that the devil insisted to God that man should rule himself. Man chose. The responsibilty for our current condition is not a result of God's will. It is a result of the rebellion against God's will. God left this equation to honor the objection that was raised.

The other problem that you don't realize is that when God said that man will rule himself MAN WILL RULE HIMSELF. He can't just take it back he has given the authority over. He would be breaking the deal, then someone else like you can say look this is a God that does not honor contracts.

So one way or the other MAN will ALWAYS rule himself. God will always honor the contract. We just need to elect a Man that has shown that he can be a perfect ruler. I have already cast my vote. I'm sure you can guess which man I voted for.

Go ahead, attack God again. Do it. Take the devil's side. Just make sure that you never under any circumstance give God the slightest benefit of the doubt. That would be rebelling against satan.

30

Resurection of "Can any believer answer this?"

by Chap in

hi all.. there was an interesting thread a while back that i have a few things to add to.

i am new so i didn't know if anyone would see a post i would put there since the thread happened a few months ago.

it is going to take a while to put all my thoughts on the subject.

starScream

Chap and Abaddon, more to Abbadon though since you seem to have sympathy for the devil.

You both make good points. I think you are both making things a little more complicated than they need to be. About God establishing his authority I will just say this:

God is God. He did not rise to power. He created everything that exists apart from himself. If we can agree that originally he made things perfect in the heavens then we should have no reason to believe that God was not the rightful ruler. If we cannot agree based on those perameters then who ever has the right to rule or decide the way things should be? If you think under those circumstances that God does not know what is best and have the justified right to establish that fact then you are posing a challenge based on your own groundless authority. I am not accusing you of this but if this is your position you are being a hypocrite for accusing God of something you are doing. This is what the devil did. This challenges God's authority.

Now here is the problem. Given this circumstance how would it satisfy you that God was the correct authority? Would you endorse the devil's objections, and everyone else's? God would be agreeing with the devil that God does not know best and is not the correct authority. God knows this is not true and would be calling himself wrong and a liar. Therefore he must insist on his authority.

So that others know that what the devil is doing is wrong he calls the devil wrong. Would you at this point have God kill the devil? What about the next person like you that says God should not have killed the devil because it wasn't proven that the devil was wrong? Do you see the problem? The solution cannot be made to satisfy all possible objections yet.

So how would prove the devil wrong for his rebellion? Any ideas? God continued creating and created man. The devil seeing the opportunity for more rebellion poses the challenge to God that man should rule himself. What would you do at this point? Would you satisfy the objection and NOT act in a way that you can be accused as a tyrant? God allowed it that if man rebels against him then man can rule himself. You seem to think that God should simply intercede at every moment without ever letting the consequences of rebellion be known. The consequences of rebelling against God are chaos, pain, confusion, hate, pride....... God did not create these things. Those that rebelled created them. By simply allowing persons the freedom to rebel God proves himself right by the outcome of ungodly authorities.

You tell me how God can make creatures with truly freewill and prove his authority when they rebel in some other way that is more to your satisfaction.

13

A JW Belief I still hold on to

by ApagaLaLuz in

all this talk of wwiii has really got to me to thinking.

i still hold strong beliefs against world divisions.

the belief that the jws teach of a world-wide unity is one that still apeals to me very much.

starScream

Wow, apparently the Watchtower thinks that not only is the white race supreme the Aryans are superior over the Jews.

While it is true that the white race exhibits some qualities of superiority over any other, we are to remember that there are wide differences in the same Caucasian (Semitic and Aryan) family; and also we should remember that some of the qualities which have given this branch of the human family its preeminence in the world

Sig Heil!!!! Deutchland Uber Alles Mein Fuhrer!! What was Hitler's Problem with J-Dubs, if anything he ripped them off!

57

Verses that bothered you as a JW

by JH in

we find god's name "jehovah" so many times in the old testament, but not at all in the new testament.

jesus is called a "mighty god" in the bible.

jesus is also called "father".

starScream

Logan, first of all what do you know about hell?

Oh yes, damning people forever in a burning Hell is much more logical than the JW version of destruction

Just like everyone else you over simplify the issue. I wish I didn't have to just say the same thing to you that you just replied to.

1) hell is separation from God.

2) in hell people will receive payment for the works they have performed in life. Justice will be done. everyone will be made to understand that it IS justice. you will not be punished for anything you have not done. If you have done no wrong then you don't need to worry. If you did something wrong in your life and want forgiveness Yashua will forgive you, if you put your faith in him.

Logic is a tool used to search for the truth. God does not need to search for the Truth. How powerful will your logic seem to God?