REALNESS:
So how did it go at the meeting? ??????????
Posts by Azalo
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109I RENOUNCE MY ASSOCIATION WITH JWS
by REALNESS init is my pleasure to announce i have terminated my membership of the jehovahs wittnesses.
i shall be formally making this statement known to my congregation at tomorrow nights meeting after i have taken the ministry school.
for many years i have developed my own thoughts on religion and this along with the information i have learned here and on other sites has convinced me that i can no longer live teaching the bollocks the wtbs.
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30
Wish You Were Here
by DakotaRed infor all the free people that still protest.
we protect you and you are protected by the best.
your voice is strong and loud, .
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Azalo
A STATEMENT OF CONSCIENCE Not In
Our NameL
et it not be said that people in the United States did nothing when their government declared a war without limit and instituted stark new measures of repression.
The signers of this statement call on the people of the U.S. to resist the policies and overall political direction that have emerged since September 11, 2001, and which pose grave dangers to the people of the world.
We believe that peoples and nations have the right to determine their own destiny, free from military coercion by great powers. We believe that all persons detained or prosecuted by the United States government should have the same rights of due process. We believe that questioning, criticism, and dissent must be valued and protected. We understand that such rights and values are always contested and must be fought for.
We believe that people of conscience must take responsibility for what their own governments do -- we must first of all oppose the injustice that is done in our own name. Thus we call on all Americans to RESIST the war and repression that has been loosed on the world by the Bush administration. It is unjust, immoral, and illegitimate. We choose to make common cause with the people of the world.
We too watched with shock the horrific events of September 11, 2001. We too mourned the thousands of innocent dead and shook our heads at the terrible scenes of carnage -- even as we recalled similar scenes in Baghdad, Panama City, and, a generation ago, Vietnam. We too joined the anguished questioning of millions of Americans who asked why such a thing could happen.
But the mourning had barely begun, when the highest leaders of the land unleashed a spirit of revenge. They put out a simplistic script of “good vs. evil” that was taken up by a pliant and intimidated media. They told us that asking why these terrible events had happened verged on treason. There was to be no debate. There were by definition no valid political or moral questions. The only possible answer was to be war abroad and repression at home.
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n our name, the Bush administration, with near unanimity from Congress, not only attacked Afghanistan but arrogated to itself and its allies the right to rain down military force anywhere and anytime. The brutal repercussions have been felt from the Philippines to Palestine, where Israeli tanks and bulldozers have left a terrible trail of death and destruction. The government has now launched an all-out war on Iraq -- a country which has no connection to the horror of September 11. What kind of world will this become if the U.S. government has a blank check to drop commandos, assassins, and bombs wherever it wants?
In our name, within the U.S., the government has created two classes of people: those to whom the basic rights of the U.S. legal system are at least promised, and those who now seem to have no rights at all. The government rounded up over 1,000 immigrants and detained them in secret and indefinitely. Hundreds have been deported and hundreds of others still languish today in prison. This smacks of the infamous concentration camps for Japanese-Americans in World War 2. For the first time in decades, immigration procedures single out certain nationalities for unequal treatment.
In our name, the government has brought down a pall of repression over society. The President’s spokesperson warns people to “watch what they say.” Dissident artists, intellectuals, and professors find their views distorted, attacked, and suppressed. The so-called Patriot Act -- along with a host of similar measures on the state level -- gives police sweeping new powers of search and seizure, supervised if at all by secret proceedings before secret courts.
In our name, the executive has steadily usurped the roles and functions of the other branches of government. Military tribunals with lax rules of evidence and no right to appeal to the regular courts are put in place by executive order. Groups are declared “terrorist” at the stroke of a presidential pen.
We must take the highest officers of the land seriously when they talk of a war that will last a generation and when they speak of a new domestic order. We are confronting a new openly imperial policy towards the world and a domestic policy that manufactures and manipulates fear to curtail rights.
There is a deadly trajectory to the events of the past months that must be seen for what it is and resisted. Too many times in history people have waited until it was too late to resist.
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resident Bush has declared: “you’re either with us or against us.” Here is our answer: We refuse to allow you to speak for all the American people. We will not give up our right to question. We will not hand over our consciences in return for a hollow promise of safety. We say NOT IN OUR NAME. We refuse to be party to these wars and we repudiate any inference that they are being waged in our name or for our welfare. We extend a hand to those around the world suffering from these policies; we will show our solidarity in word and deed.
We who sign this statement call on all Americans to join together to rise to this challenge. We applaud and support the questioning and protest now going on, even as we recognize the need for much, much more to actually stop this juggernaut. We draw inspiration from the Israeli reservists who, at great personal risk, declare “there IS a limit” and refuse to serve in the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza.
We also draw on the many examples of resistance and conscience from the past of the United States: from those who fought slavery with rebellions and the underground railroad, to those who defied the Vietnam war by refusing orders, resisting the draft, and standing in solidarity with resisters.
Let us not allow the watching world today to despair of our silence and our failure to act. Instead, let the world hear our pledge: we will resist the machinery of war and repression and rally others to do everything possible to stop it.
The over 65,000 signers include...
James Abourezk, former U.S. Senator Rudolfo Acuna, author of Occupied America Dr. Patch Adams Michael Albert Jace Alexander Robert Altman Aris Anagnos Laurie Anderson Ida Applebroog John Ashbery Edward Asner Jon Robin Baitz Thomas Balanoff, president, Local 1, SEIU Russell Banks John Perry Barlow, co-founder, Electronic Frontier Foundation Rev. Willie T. Barrow, Operation Push Sue Bauman, Mayor of Madison , WI Rosalyn Baxandall Joel Beinen, Professor of Middle East History, Stanford Medea Benjamin Phyllis Bennis, Institute for Policy Studies, New Internationalism Project Jessica Blank & Erik Jensen, playwrights, The Exonerated William Blum, author of Rogue State Wayne C. Booth, professor emeritus, Chicago Fr. Bob Bossie, SCJ, and the staff of 8th Day Center for Justice Lawrence Brent Brilliant, M.D. Oscar Brown, Jr. Margaret Burroughs, founder, DuSable Museum Judith Bulter Leslie Cagan, chair, Interim Pacifica Foundation Board Kisha Imani Cameron Rosemary Carroll Sen. Gilberto Cedillo, California state legislature Kathlenn & Henry Chalfant Celia Chang, chairperson, Wen Ho Lee Defense Fund Steering Committee Linda Chapman, New York Theater Workshop Rep. Maralyn Chase, Washington state legislature Bell & Paul Chevigny Mel Chin Noam Chomsky Ann Christopherson, president, American Booksellers Assn. Jill Ciment Ramsey Clark Jill Clayburgh Marilyn Clement, Exec. Sec. for Economic Justice, United Methodist Women’s Division Ben Cohen, cofounder, Ben and Jerry's David Cole, professor of law, Georgetown University Steve Coleman Robbie Conal Stephanie Coontz, historian, Evergreen State College Paula Cooper Carlos Cortez, “Koyokuikatal” Kia Corthron, playwright, Breath, Boom Petah Coyne Robert Creeley Kimberly Crenshaw, professor of law, Columbia and UCLA Culture Clash John Cusack Damen & Naomi, Musicians for Peace Kevin Danaher, Global Exchange Barbara Dane Rev. Herbert Daughtry Angela Davis Ossie Davis Zack de la Rocha Sheila DeBretteville, director of studies in graphic design, Yale Mos Def Tony Del Plato, chef/co-owner, Moosewood Restaurant Richard Delgado, U. of Colorado Boulder School of Law Rev. Gregory R. Dell, Broadway United Methodist Church of Chicago Rosalyn Deutsche Ani Di Franco Diane DiPrima Mark Di Suvero Carl Dix, Revolutionary Communist Party Bernadine Dohrn, director, Children & Family Justice Center Julie Dorf, International Gay & Lesbian Human Rights Commission Carol Downer, board of directors, Chico Feminist Women's Health Center Roma Downey Roxanne Dunbar-Ortiz, professor, California State University, Hayward Sandy Duncan Bill Dyson, Connecticut state legislature Michael Eric Dyson Steve Earle Barbara Ehrenreich Deborah Eisenberg Nora Eisenberg, author of The War at Home Hector Elizondo Daniel Ellsberg Brian Eno Eve Ensler Reva Enteen, National Lawyers Guild, San Francisco Martín Espada Michelle Esrick Leo Estrada, UCLA professor, Urban Planning Robert Falls Nina Felshin, author of But Is It Art? The Spirit of Art as Activism James R. Fennerty, pres., National Lawyers Guild, Chicago Frances D. Fergusson Lawrence Ferlinghetti, City Lights Bookstore Fifty-three Maryknoll priests and brothers Norman G. Finkelstein, author of The Holocaust Industry Laura Flanders Jane Fonda Henry Foner, former pres., Fur & Leather Workers Union Richard Foreman Thomas C. Fox, publisher, National Catholic Reporter Elizabeth Frank Mary Frank H. Bruce Franklin, professor of American Studies, Rutgers in Newark Michael Franti Glen E. Friedman Bill Frisell Frank Galati Peter Gerety Terry Gilliam Milton Glaser Charles Glass Jeremy Matthew Glick, co-editor of Another World Is Possible Corey Glover Danny Glover Danny Goldberg Leon Golub Juan Gómez Quiñones, historian, UCLA Vivian Gornick Jorie Graham Robert Greenwald André Gregory John Guare José Guerrero, director Taller Mestizarte Guerrilla Girls Allan Gurganus Richard Haas Jessica Hagedorn Sondra Hale, professor, anthropology and women's studies, UCLA Ann Hamilton Suheir Hammad Nathalie Handal Daniel Handler (aka Lemony Snicket) Michael Hardt, author of Empire Christine B. Harrington, professor of politics, NYU Lyle Ashton Harris David Harvey, professor of anthropology, CUNY Stanley Hauerwas Tom Hayden Hazel Hernder, author of Beyond Globalization Edward S. Herman, Wharton School , U. of Pennsylvania Susannah Heschel, professor, Dartmouth David Himmelstein, Harvard School of Medicine Fred Hirsch, vice pres., Plumbers and Fitters Local 393 bell hooks Walter Hopps Doug Ireland, contributing editor, In These Times Rakaa Iriscience, Dilated Peoples Alfredo Jaar Abdeen Jabara, attorney, past pres., American Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee Rev. Jesse Jackson Ken Jacobs Mumia Abu-Jamal Fredric Jameson, chair, literature program, Duke Jim Jarmusch Chalmers Johnson, author of Blowback Virgil C. Johnson, chair, theater department, Northwestern B.J. Jones, artistic dir., Northlight Theatre Bill T. Jones J.P. Jones Sarah Jones Melanie Joseph, artistic dir., Foundry Theater Louise J. Kaplan Casey Kasem Evelyn Fox Keller, history of science, MIT Robin D.G. Kelly, history and Africana studies, NYU As`ad AbuKhalil, Professor, Cal State Univ, Stanislaus Martin Luther King III, pres., Southern Christian Leadership Conference Barbara Kingsolver Arthur Kinoy, board co-chair, Center for Constitutional Rights Bob Kinsey, Peace & Justice Taskforce, Rocky Mountain Conf., UCC Sally Kirkland C. Clark Kissinger, Refuse & Resist! Sen. Adam Klein, Washington state legislature Yuri Kochiyama Michael Konopacki Rev. Earl Kooperkamp, pastor, St. Mary’s Episcopal Church Annisette & Thomas Koppel, Savage Rose Barbara Kopple David Korten, author of When Corporations Rule the World Ron Kovic Max, Joyce, and Nikolas Kozloff Barbara Kruger Tony Kushner Rev. Peter Laarman, senior minister, Judson Memorial Church Mike Ladd James Lafferty, exec. dir., National Lawyers Guild/L.A. Ray Laforest, Haiti Support Network Beth K. Lamont Lisa & Pilar Law Jesse Lemisch, prof. of history emeritus, John Jay College of Justice, CUNY Harriet Lerner Rabbi Michael Lerner, editor, TIKKUN magazine Phil Lesh, Grateful Dead Michael Letwin, co-convenor, NYC Labor Against the War Richard Lewontin, professor emeritus of biology, Harvard Lucy R. Lippard James Longley José Lopez, dir. Puerto Rican Cultural Center, Chicago Raymond Lotta, author of America in Decline Barbara Lubin, Middle East Childrens Alliance Janet L. Abu-Lughod, professor of political and social science, New School Staughton Lynd Reynaldo Macia, dir., Cesar Chavez Center, UCLA Jeff Mackler, Socialist Action Jack Macrae Arturo Madrid, professor of humanities, Trinity Dave Marsh Rabbi Robert Marx Maryknoll Sisters, Western USA Malachy McCourt Rep. Jim McDermott Aaron McGruder Richard J. McIver, Seattle city council Cynthia McKinney, former U.S. representative David McReynolds Chuck Mee Susan Meiselas Richard Mellor, vice pres., AFSCME Local 444 W.S. Merwin Arnold Mesches Jay A. Miller Paul D. Miller, DJ Spooky aka The Subliminal Kid Susan Minot Mary Miss Edgar Mitchell, astronaut Anuradha Mittal, co-dir., Institute for Food and Development Policy/Food First Malaquias Montoya Tom Morello Robin Morgan Robert Morris Viggo Mortensen Min. Benjamín Muhammed, Hip-Hop Summit Action Network Graham Nash Jill Nelson, prof. City College of NY Robert Nichols Linda Nochlin, professor of modern art, NYU Institute of Fine Arts Kate Noonan Odetta Claes Oldenburg Pauline Oliveros Yoko Ono Rev. E. Randall Osburn, exec. v.p., Southern Christian Leadership Conference Ozomatli Grace Paley Michael Parenti Ron OJ Parsons Rosalind Pecheskey, professor of political science, Hunter College Jeremy Pikser, screenwriter, Bulworth Justice R. Eugene Pincham, ret., Illinois Appellate Court Frances Fox Piven Sylvia Plachy Assemblyman Mark Pocan, Wisconsin state legislature Katha Pollitt James Stewart Polshek Harold Prince Jerry Quickley John T. Racanelli, Presiding Justice (Ret), California Court of Appeal Peter Rachleff, professor of history, Macalester College Bonnie Raitt Margaret Randall Marcus Raskin Michael Ratner, pres., Center for Constitutional Rights Amy Ray, Indigo Girls Rev. George Regas, Interfaith Communities United for Justice and Peace Reno Graeme Revell Adrienne Rich Judy F. Richardson, associate producer, Eyes on the Prize David Riker, filmmaker, La Ciudad Boots Riley, The Coup Faith Ringgold Sen. Fred Risser, Wisconsin state legislature Kate Robin Avital Ronell Jonathan Rosenbaum, author of Movie Wars Edgar Rosenblum Naomi & Walter Rosenblum James Rosenquist Martha Rosler Judith Rossner Matthew Rothschild, editor of The Progressive Ed Sadlowski Bernard & Jane Nicholl Sahlins Edward Said Angelica Salas, director, Campaign for Humane Immigrant Rights of Los Angeles David Salle Angela Sanbrano, exec. dir., Central American Resource Center Luc Sante Rep. Sharon Tomiko Santos, Washington state legislature Andy Sapora, Flying Karamozov Brothers Susan Sarandon Saskia Sassen, professor of sociology, Chicago John Sayles James Schamus, producer-writer, Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon Jonathan Schell, fellow of the Nation Institute Paul Schell, former mayor of Seattle Carolee Schneemann Juliet Schor, Professor of Sociology, Boston College Annabella Sciorra Pete and Toshi Seeger Mark Selden Peter Selz Peter A. Serkin Frank Serpico Richard Serra Betty Shamieh Alexander Sharp, exec. dir., Protestants for the Common Good Rev. Al Sharpton Wallace Shawn Charlotte Sheedy Martin Sheen Ron Shelton Alex Shoumatoff Robert J. Siegel, pres., Seattle National Lawyers Guild Russell Simmons Zachary Sklar Chuck Smith, artistic associate, Goodman Theatre Kiki Smith Joan Snyder Paul Soglin, former mayor of Madison , WI Miles Solay, NION Project Norman Solomon Scott Spenser Nancy Spero Art Spiegelman S. Peg Spindler, dir., Sojourner Truth House, Gary, IN Starhawk Jean Stefancic, U. of Colorado Boulder School of Law Bob Stein Jack Steinberger, Nobel Laureate Gloria Steinem Pat Steir Oliver Stone Mark Strand William & Rose Styron Steve Swallow Tony Taccone Ron Takaki, professor of ethnic studies, Berkeley Jonathan Tasini, pres., National Writers Union , NYC Michael Taussig, professor of anthropology, Columbia Studs Terkel Andy Thayer, Chicago Anti-Bashing Network Marisa Tomei Tuck & Patti Marcia Tucker, founding dir. emerita, New Museum of Contemporary Art, NY Lief Utne Nina Utne Kinan Valdez, El Teatro Campesino Coosje van Bruggen Marcia E. Vetrocq, senior editor, Art in America Gore Vidal Anton Vodvarka, Lt., FDNY (ret.) Kurt Vonnegut Alice Walker Rebecca Walker Naomi Wallace Immanuel Wallerstein, professor of sociologist, Yale Rob Warden, Center on Wrongful Convictions, Northwestern Wavy Gravy Rev. George Webber, pres. emeritus, NY Theological Seminary Leonard Weinglass Cora Weiss, pres., Hague Appeal for Peace Cornel West Celia Weston Haskell Wexler John Edgar Wideman C.K. Williams Saul Williams Victoria Williams Standish E. Willis, Chicago Conference of Black Lawyers S. Brian Willson Martha Wilson, Franklin Furnace Bob Wing, WarTimes Kryzsztof Wodiczko Alice Woldt, Church Council of Greater Seattle Steffie Woolhandler, Harvard School of Medicine Jeffrey Wright Dennis Zacek, artistic director, Victory Gardens Theater Zephyr Mary Zimmerman Howard Zinn
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Questions Directed Towards: YOU (ex-JW)
by RAYZORBLADE ini thought i'd give this a go, lighten up the forum a little.
just curious, about a few things regarding all of us who participate on here.
i have some questions, of which i will answer also.
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Azalo
1. How long were you a Jehovah's Witness? 17 years
2. Were you raised in it or become a JW later on in life? raised
3. Were you contacted via the door-to-door ministry? no
4. Initially, what intrigued or drew you to the Jehovah's Witnesses then? scared of dying in armageddon
5. When were you baptized? Or if you weren't, mention that if you wish. around age 13, biggest mistake i ever made
6. When did you start having doubts? all my life i think i just tried not to think about it
7. What else perhaps contributed to your leaving? wanted freedom
8. When were you disfellowshipped/disassociated? dont think i have been, but i dont know
9. Have you ever been reinstated? n/a i think
10. Did you attempt to contact or have spoken with other active-JWs when you were DF/DA'd? i emailed a few of my old friends but thats it, theo ones i try to talk to are pretty cool with me
11. Have you ever protested/picketted a JW assembly/convention? no, and i dont think i would but i definitelt support those that do
12. Do you miss being a Jehovah's Witness? no i just miss some of my old friends
13. Do you still have family that are active JWs? my whole family and more are converting all the time unfortunately
14. Do you believe in god/God etc.? no, not really
15. Are you politically active or have voted? yes and i am in the military although i think that too was a mistake (military is very similar to the WTS in many ways)
16. Would you say you have become more tolerant or open-minded generally speaking since you left? yes, when i went to college i became more toleratant
17. Do you think that the WTBTS will crumble? i think it will eventually hopefully soon for my family's sake
18. If you could say anything to the WTBTS and be listened to, what would you like to say? admit you dont know what your talking about, keep your money if you want but stop ruining lives
19. What has helped you to cope, post-JW? information
20. Anything else you'd like to say/add?
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Dear person from Wichita Kansas who decided to be a snitch.....
by pr_capone inonce again, whomever you are, you are too chicken shit to talk to me directly.
i am so angered that you once again, although i gave you my # and email address with which to contact me, have decided to take information that i have posted directly to the elders.
again, werent you supposed to come to me???
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Azalo
man this is exactly why i dont post any personal info. although i wonder if my old congregation has made any announcements about me since it is common nowledge there that i joined the military although that was a few years after i left not only that congregation but the state altogether. ok i am rambling off the subject sorry
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Depressed beyond Words...
by Shytears indid u ever feel so depressed u felt the only thing that could get rid of the pain was to commit suicide???
?...well i tried that tonite,i know its not a good thing ,but i felt it was the only way out..well im still here so i didnt do it,thank god,my wrists have lil cuts everywhere tho,i just hope no one sees them..if u guys remember me yall know it has been an ongoing battle with my parents cause i dont wanna be a witness.. now i literally cannot do nothing!
they dont trust me at all!
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Azalo
i think that you should try to do as well as you can in school so that when u graduate you can leave ur home and go off to college, even better if you could get a scholarship. have u tried telling your parents that you dont want to be a jw, sometimes the shock alone is enough to make them ease up for fear of pushing you further away.
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The WatchTower and Higher Education
by Maverick inrunningman's post on the fallacies of the watchtower reasonings started me thinking on the gb's stand on higher education.
i am impressed with the superb thinking ability of many who post here.
unclebruce, stephanus, victor_e, gamaliel, blondie, undisfellowshipped, and machislopp to name just a few.
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Azalo
i got out right after graduation from HS and thankfully i did go to college, what burns me is that i didnt get to play sports in HS, i know maybe its petty and insignificant but that is one of my biggest regrets in life.
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help what bookstudy book are we in?
by lostandnotfound ini am new here and i usually dont come to these type of places as they are rampant with apostates.
i still belive in most of the teachings but its the people in the org.
that have turned me away.. the reason that i am posting though is this, i have been inactive for a few months now but i have been holding out telling my parents, friends etc.
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Azalo
a two volume book all about isaiah! that must be a real pageturner, boy am i out of the loop. i remeber when i was in we used to alternate between creation, united, you can live forever and then they threw greates man into the rotation (probably a couple of others too)
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WT Comments You Will Not Hear at the 3-30-03 WT Study
by blondie inwt comments you will not hear at the 3-30-03 wt study
february 15, 2003. wts quotes will be in red; reviewers comments in black or in parentheses.
why observe the lords evening meal?.
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Azalo
you guys have piqued my curiosity. so what are the consequences of partaking when you shouldn't and how do they possibly intend on judging who should and who shouldn't?
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HELP! Mother in Law coming to visit @ Memorial time
by betweenworlds inwell, i'm kind of in an uncomfortable position here.
my mother in law is coming to stay with is on her way back from florida.
(we're in nc) well as luck would she is going to get here on april 15th.
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Azalo
it is defnitely going to be awkward but you're better off taking a stand now than allowing this one exception which your in-laws could use to start planting little seeds in your children's heads. I told my parents before my first child was even born that I did not want them talking to her about anything religious until she was an adult. I want her to have a childhood free of guilt. they said they respected my wishes and so far it hasnt been an issue.
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Remembering the Truth
by ScoobySnax ini have no argument left in me, and no desire to fight really.
when i was inactive i used to look at ex-jws with placard boards outside assemblies or conventions, i knew these people existed even if they were a bit "wacky".
i always used to wonder why these people did this, and to be honest i didn't like them, they looked creepy stood there with their flip charts outside a stadium.
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Azalo
when i first left 7 years ago I always figured I'd be back some day but now i know that there is no way i could evr go bck and i feel great about that, i dont have the perpetual guilt anymore. now i just wait on my family to open their eyes, they will eventually, i just hope that it will be sooner rather than later.
