Posts by azaria

Hi SNG: Your post didn't offend me at all. I haven't read your post that you mentioned yet. I've been so busy that I didn't have time to respond sooner.

Obviously because I believe in God this post will reflect that.

Hi Abaddon: I wasn't going to respond but I do want to make some points, not that you or anyone would change their mind, It's put together rather quickly. Don't really have time to work on it, but I'm sure you get my drift.

If someone was able to prove god existed, fine, but I'm not holding my breath. No one's done it yet. And that is not through want of trying.

You state that no one has proven God’s existence but many people would argue that point. Many people firmly believe that it has been proven, through nature, through changes in peoples lives, etc. The only thing we haven’t seen is the physical body of God, the Father and I don’t think we could handle it.

If god existed and how we acted mattered we would know. No reasonable being deserving of worship would let people be uninformed and suffer as a result. If god would allow people by action or inaction to be ignorant of what they should do and of the certainty of its existence,. This is not an insult against any gods other than the ones that fit the attached description.

As I’ve stated, I believe that God exists and it does matter how we act and we do know how we should act. We are informed, through the bible for one. I do believe that God has placed in us moral principles and the knowledge of Him deep inside us. For some it’s buried so deep they can’t even acknowledge it. Some comments, which I deleted, I would rather not address except to say that one needs to learn to respect other peoples opinions contrary to ones own. I don’t believe in Islam or Hinduism but would never hurl insults at these people or the people they looked up to. They have every right to believe what they want but that doesn’t mean that I have to accept it. Likewise they don’t have to accept mine.

I realise that some people feel god allowing us to be sure it existed would negate free will, and use this as the big excuse of why god isn't provable, but quite frankly the argument they use is absurd as it assumes that IF god existed AND proved he existed beyond reason ALL people would do what they should.

1.Maybe we are being tested to see how truly loving we are. (How many of us complain about the suffering in this world, especially in third world countries, but as individuals do nothing about it) 2.Maybe He wants us to really seek Him, which takes work on our part.

I also realise some people perceive god or think they are god, but as they often disagree with each other I think we know what value we can assign to these perceptions or delusions.

I do believe in an absolute truth. Some things just aren’t negotiable or debatable. God Himself has decided, not me, but I'm sure that some would consider me arrogant for stating so. What someone may think or create in his own head isn’t necessarily reality. Each one of us has to make a decision about what we believe, whether we reject all gods altogether, whether we embrace Judaism, Hinduism, Islam, etc. Because I’m Christian I will try to comment about Christian beliefs. I feel that most mainstream Christians do believe the same thing when it comes to the really important doctrines. It’s when we get to the smaller, less significant things that we may disagree.

It might be something we would call god exists, but we are unimportant to it despite our inflated little monkey egos. Give a primate an opposable thumb and it's all airs and graces... But obviously in such an instance it really doesn't matter if god exists or not.

Not sure what you mean by this paragraph.

So thus far god either is an , or is irrelevent, or doesn't exist. As god existing also requires all sorts of illogicity and pre-supposition, as I say, prove it but I expect to be disappointed each time someone tries.

Illogicity - that’s a new one for me. Did you ever believe in God? Was there one thing in particular that happened to you personally to change your views or was it over time?

god > morals > laws > goverment is an old disproven theists chestnut, I think I've read it in 'Mere Christianity", where essentially C.S. Lewis says that there is a god because we have morals.

If your dog pisses on the carpet it normally knows it is in trouble; that's not morals, that's learned behaviour and instinct completely fitting within a non-divine explanation of reality. To conclude that humans are different is to make a presuppostition that humans morals are 'magic' from 'god', and not merely instinct (don't piss off a more dominant 'dog' in the afore mentioned example) and learned behaviour (because he'll hit you with a newspaper and push your nose in the pee-pee). Making assumptions because one is unaware of animal or human behaviour is not proof of god.

Do you really compare your behaviour to an animal? Obviously animals don’t have morals. As you state it’s learned behaviour and instinct. I don’t think a dog would gather up a bunch of other dogs and help the less fortunate dogs that don’t have anything to eat. I doubt that they care if another dog goes hungry unless it’s a mother.Yes humans learn certain behaviour and as a woman I totally believe in instinct but I believe that each person is born with moral values. I think in time because of negative learned behaviour, trauma, etc it can be pushed deep inside but I believe that everyone has it. Heaven help us all if it’s strictly learned behaviour and instincts.

First of all even though I do come across as very annoyed, I’’m not, but am very saddened and offended by a number of remarks. I'm not offended when someone questions or wonders if God exists, it's when people make derogatory comments about Him that offends me and I'm sure most Christians.

I'm sorry, I find it offensive that I have to act as though your imaginary friend existed to avoid offending you. Do you watch what you say about non-believers in god in case you offend them?

I’m a little confused. How could I have offended you personally when this is your first post to this topic. As I’ve stated before, I’m not offended by someone disagreeing with me. I am offended when someone uses derogatory words about someone that I believe in. Show me where I may have offended someone who has different views to mine.

If so, you've failed. Your arrogance in assuming people's comments about something they don't believe exists applies to your personal deity is offensive... or do you know definatively that YOUR interpretation of the Bible is right? Atheists lampoon the idea of god, but to say they are insulting god is to lose track of the simple fact they don't believe in god. They are insulting the idea of god, as it is arguably a silly one.

As I’ve stated before, show me how I truly offended someone just by stating my views and beliefs. Do you definitely know that you are right? If one doesn’t have any convictions about something, stand for something one is extremely shallow in my estimation. What I truly don’t understand is why you get so annoyed because someone believes in God. Would you have the same reaction if someone said that they believed in say, Santa; that he was the creator You may roll your eyes and think, this person needs help, but would you get angry with him?

Oh, do you make sure that believers in other gods are not offended by what you say?

I don’t think that people who strongly believe in one god would be threatened by someone believing in a different god. I may not agree with someone but I wouldn’t be offended. Unless they shoved it down my throat and make me feel that I had no choice.

Tell you what, the day you make sure what you say doesn't offend me as an atheist or believers in any possible form of god, then you can start finger pointing about how other people talk.

There you go again accusing me of offending you when this is your first post. You would be more correct if you say that I may have offended atheists in general, but not you personally.

I also love how the believers are the presupposers whilst the agnostics and even some atheists are those who admit if better information came along they would revise their opinion, but what else would an atheist expect, eh?

You don’t love it. You know, someone who truly wants the truth, whether they are believers, agnostics or atheists wouldn’t feel threatened and might consider changing their minds if they got valid information. I feel that some people may be too stubborn to admit that they may be wrong.

If there is a god it'll be far grander than the pathetic and childish human conceptions of it, that's for sure.

On some level I have to agree with you there. I don’t think people could ever comprehend how incredibly awesome God is. We only see small glimpses of His existence, as much as we can handle. I do think that if we could, we wouldn’t be able to handle it. It would be too much. But hey, I believe in Him and I won’t apologize for that. I hope there are no hard feelings, but please don't use foul language. Agree to disagree but show some respect please..

1

PLEASE HELP THE PEOPLE IN THE CARIBBEAN IF YOU CAN

by azaria in

jw
friends

i'm off to work in a few minutes but wanted to post this message.

please if you are financially capable, donate, whether to the red cross, salvation army.

the destruction on these islands, especially haiti, has been devastating.

azaria

I'm off to work in a few minutes but wanted to post this message. Please if you are financially capable, donate, whether to the red cross, salvation army. The destruction on these islands, especially Haiti, has been devastating.

26

I need loving hearts to send help to another EX-JW

by mouthy in

jw
friends

i am asking any who could take the time-to send encouragement to an ex jw-she was raised as one- her mother died for refusing blood...she married out of the org- & was dfellowshipped.

the fellow she married was an alcholic---didnt understand her feelings about being ousted!!!!

!a couple of months ago she tried to kill herself.why????

azaria

Hi Grace, my card to your friend is in the mail. I hope she receives many cards. She's in my prayers. Love, Azaria

56

Are you an atheist? ...

by Nicolas in

jw
friends

personally, i consider myself as a "soft-atheist".

i don't believe in god but i keep an open mind and if someone can come with a real proof of god's existence, i'll take it.

for now, i consider that believing in god, is just as silly as believing in santa claus.

azaria

I didn’t have much difficulty believing in God but at one time I did have a difficult time believing in Jesus. So much so that I stopped going to church because I felt like a hypocrite. I now believe in Him. I do believe in the bible; that Jesus is mentioned in the OT many times but we do have to read it. I don’t think we should believe something just because some one else has said so. One must look into it themselves. I do believe that Jesus was there before time began as the Word. So yes, I do believe in a Triune God.

56

Are you an atheist? ...

by Nicolas in

jw
friends

personally, i consider myself as a "soft-atheist".

i don't believe in god but i keep an open mind and if someone can come with a real proof of god's existence, i'll take it.

for now, i consider that believing in god, is just as silly as believing in santa claus.

azaria

Sorry for not responding sooner. With work and everything I’m very busy. I wish I had more time for this post. Thanks SNG and Euphemism for responding. My intention was not to persuade anyone to change their mind. I can’t, just like you can’t change my mind. Some say, show me that God exists and I say, I know that God exists because I see it all around me. The older I get the more in awe I am. My concern is for new people who have just left the org and are very vulnerable. Maybe I’m wrong, but I see some like vultures ready for their prey.

The analogy of the universe to a house is a misleading one.

As for my analogy, I admit it was extremely simplistic but I don’t understand why it’s a misleading one. It’s like comparing our Heavenly Father to our earthly father. There is no comparison. Likewise, comparing a house to the universe. The point I was trying to make was that I get very offended when God is maligned in such a way. I believe that He created all things and for me to hear someone say that He is stupid more than offends me.

The most asked question and probably the most difficult to answer is why there is so much suffering. As Czar has stated at what point should God have responded to our sins and interceded? The first time when sin occurred and each and every time that sin was committed? We would always be like little children, never growing up, never truly loving and empathetic, never being responsible for our own mistakes. God loves us so much that He gave us free choice. You can’t truly love without free choice. If some here don’t like how God set it up how would you have done it, if you had the power?

For some it's too ludicrous to consider that there is a creator. As for me, it's too ludicrous to consider that there is no creator. But as I said before we are all given free choice. Some choose not to believe and some choose to believe. Some say there is no proof and others say there’s an abundance of proof. I do believe that if someone is truly not interested, God will not reveal Himself. Take care, Azaria

56

Are you an atheist? ...

by Nicolas in

jw
friends

personally, i consider myself as a "soft-atheist".

i don't believe in god but i keep an open mind and if someone can come with a real proof of god's existence, i'll take it.

for now, i consider that believing in god, is just as silly as believing in santa claus.

azaria

First of all even though I do come across as very annoyed, I’m not, but am very saddened and offended by a number of remarks. I'm not offended when someone questions or wonders if God exists, it's when people make derogatory comments about Him that offends me and I'm sure most Christians. I guess in a very small way it’s like someone who is incapable of designing, building or affording a house and then complaining to the builder who donated this house. The people move in only to destroy the house and then complain to the builder, that he is an untalented, stupid being. (Or for those who don’t even believe in God- the house just happened to appear out of nowhere) I know it’s not put together very well but hope you get the gyst of it. These responses really upset me. Human beings who can’t understand or comprehend Him yet try to define who God is. They are not impressed with him, he’s weak, stupid and evil or he simply doesn’t exist.

There is no compelling evidence of His existence? Maybe they should really open their eyes and look around. I do believe in God and do see proof of His existence in everything good in this world. I do believe that He is omnipotent, omniscient, intelligent, loving, just. According to one booklet I read, only about 4.5% of the world population consider themselves atheists, 1,900 million or 34 % of the population consider themselves Christian. Does that mean that 4.5% of the people are intelligent, self sufficient, and that the rest are stupid and in need of a crutch because without that crutch we would surely be a pitiful bunch of human beings?

It seems that many who were formerly witnesses are now atheists or agnostic. Does that say something about this organization? Is it possible that it was so ingrained in you that this was the only true religion and that all other religions were false and evil, that when you started to question you ended up rejecting all religion? From what I personally have experienced it seems that the witness psyche is very hopeless (in spite of what they say) and very negative. I believe that Christians don’t have perfect lives (like the rest of society) but they have hope in an eternal life and the hope that with Jesus in their hearts that the here and now is more joyful in spite of the problems and suffering we all experience, that as human beings we try to become better people that sincerely want to help others, to make a difference in this world. It seems that many people who complain about evil and that it’s God’s fault fail to do anything about it. Who are the first to help their fellow man during a tragedy? I think it’s time that we quit blaming God for everything and put the blame where it truly belongs, with us.

9

The 3 Most Twisted Scriptures in JW Thinking

by metatron in

once upon a time, a bible edition was said to have been printed that accidentally omitted.

a "not" in a critical text.

thus, the "thou shalt commit adultery" bible was created - and .

azaria

Revelation 22 is a blatant example of the convoluted method of translation in the NWT. To avoid the obvious conclusion from the text that Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega, they separate verses 12-15 with a set of quotation marks to make it seem that Jehovah is being quoted rather than Jesus. It's an utterly impossible interpretation of the text. In any normal translation the phrase "I am coming quickly" is uttered three times by Jesus. In the NWT it is uttered twice by Jesus and once by Jehovah, although the latter doesn't at any point introduce himself, and when he's finished, Jesus immediately continues speaking.

How do witnesses reconcile these two verses: Even though I don't believe in the NWT I am quoting from that book just to show that they have interpreted something correctly. In their own version of the bible it states that both God and Jesus are the First and the Last. Isaiah 44:6 I am the first and I am the last and besides me there is no God. Rev 1:17-18 Do not be fearful. I am the First and the Last, and the living one, and I became dead, but look I am living forever and ever,

38

Creation vs Evolution? or Creation and Evolution?

by azaria in

i believe this has been touched on in an earlier post but thought id start my own.

i know that im going out on a limb here.

a number of times ive hesitated before submitting a post or response.

azaria

AlanF: Just a quick reply. It's late and I have to work in the morning. Thanks for the response. I'll read it tomorrow. Tonight I'm just too tired.

28

Was there really a global flood? (new publication reasoning)

by Simon in

the latest "keep on the watch" publication released at the district assembly really looks like a rehash of old material (and even old pictures ... they must be running out of paint or something!)..

one 'gem' caught my eye flicking through it.

how do you reason with people to convince them that the bible account of a global flood is real?.

azaria

(many cultures have a flood myth)

Personally I do believe that a global flood did happen. I did read somewhere that native Indians in, I believe, Arizona believed that a fairly extensive flood did happen there. I do have The Indians Book (Authentic Native American Legends, Lore and Music) but can't find this story. I did have a problem taking the bible too literally and did ask a pastor once about it. He gave me a brochure but it didn't satisfy me. I can't believe that every animal, insect, plant life,etc fit into an ark, that everything was killed off, except ofcourse water creatures. To me the only thing that might be plausable is that it happened a lot longer ago than we realize. I do believe that things, people did gradually evolve. Otherwise how do you explain the different races of people. Anyway I think I did finally find the story so I will copy it here. It's rather interesting to me anyway.

The Mojave-Apaches are a band of Majave Indians whose original home was in the Verde Valley of Arizona.

The Story of Gomoidema Pokoma-Kiaka (The First Woman who made the Son of God)

Many years ago we lived not here upon this earth but down under the ground. And there came a time when we had no fruit and there was nothing to eat. So we sent the humming-bird to see what he could find. Wherever he might find fruit or food of any kind, there the people would go. He flew up into the sky, and there he saw a grape-vine that had its roots in the underworld and grew up through a hole in the middle of the sky into the upper world. The humming-bird saw the hole in the sky and flew through it, and came to a land where mescal and fruits and flowers of all kinds were growing. It was a good land. It was this world.

So the humming-bird flew back and told the people that he had seen a beautiful country above. "Let us all go up there," he said. So they all went up, climbing on the grape-vine. They climbed without stopping until they had come out hrough the hole in the sky into the upper world. But they left behind them in the nderworld and frog-folk, who where blind. Now when the people had lived for a while in that land they heard a noise, and they wondered at it and sent a man to look down the hole, through which they had come, to see what made the noise. The man looked and saw the waters were rising from the underworld and were already so high that they nearly reached the mouth of the hole. The people said, "The blind frongs below have made this flood, and if it rises out of the hole it will wash us all away." So they took counsel together, and then they hollowed out a tree like a trough and put into it plenty of rruits and blankets. The chose a beautiful maiden and laid her in the rough, and closed it up and said, "Now if the waters come and we are all washed away, she will be saved alive."

The flood came up through the hole, and the people ran to the mountains, but though the ountains were high the waters rose over them.

The trough floated like a boat, and the flood kept rising, till at last it nearly touched the sky. Still the waters rose till the waves dashed the trough against the sky, where it struck with a loud noise. It struck first to the south, then to the west, then to the north, then nearly to theeast. The the flood began to go down.

The oeple had said to the woman, "If you hear the waters going down, wait till the rough rests on the earth, then make a little opening and look around you."

When the trough rested on the ground the woman opened it and went out. She looked all around her, over all the world, but saw non one. All the people had been drowned. The the woman thought, "How can Ibear children and make a new people?"

She went up into the mountains early, before sunrise, and lay there alone. The the daylight came and the beams from the sun shone warm upon the woman, and the water dripped from the crag, and in this way she conceived, and bore a daughter. When the child was grown to maidenhood the mother said to her, "Do you know, my daughter, how you came to be?" And the maid said, "No.:

"I will show you," said the mother.

So she led her daughter up into the mountains, and bade her lie down as she herself had lain. And the maid lay on the mountain all day. Next morning early, before sunrise, the mother went to her, and she lay down upon her daughter and looked at the sun. The she quickly sprang up, and in this way the maiden conceived of the sun, and the child that she bore was the Son of God-Sekala Ka-amja, "The-One-Who-Never-Died."

That was tiring. Hopefully there weren't too many mistakes. Some may say so what, what does that prove. The only thing that I'm trying to point out is that on the other side of the world a similar story was told, granted the story could have travelled with the nomads (from Africa, India to Siberia to North America-but I'm just guessing. I personally can't take the old testament too literally; some may call me a heretic for saying that. But to me to take it too literally, it makes no sense.