Posts by Jayson

865

WoMD ... so where are they?

by Simon in

now, the war is over, the weapons were not used and of course have not been found.. how threatening could they be if they did not even use them when being invaded by a massive force (of the countries they hate)?!

perhaps, as many suspect, they didn't use them because they didn't have them?.

now we're being told that we'll have to be patient and give them time to find them.

Jayson

Over this stupid irrelevent topic [bush] I have no doubt lost a lot of friends. People who I once held in nothing but complete respect. Do I still have respect for them? Yes, my contempt is with the media not anyone here. I have asked, pleaded, yelled, and swore at people to look at more than media information. I really feel that political ideology is so strong that is impossible. I read claims about how it was the US who made the Iraqi army so powerful. That is hardly true. I have read where total military sales to Iraq equaled 250 million dollars where as France, Germany, China, and Russian sales where as high as 5 billion each. Yes Iraq had some backing via loans from the US during the Iran/Iraq war. Saddam paid back every penny plus interest. How many of you knew that Rummie brokered those deals in the 80's? And, Ollie the now news corespondant remember he has center in the Iran contra affair? No doubt that he aided the US in selling Arms via Israel to Iran during the same conflict. That is one reason for Saddams hate for the West. He thought that we were screwing him and we were. Kuwait [the invasion] was to try to revieve his economy. To win the Gulf war all he had to do was survive in power and he did. He was a beaken to the Arab world that you can stand up to the US and live. Containment was falling apart. Europe was board with it and quite frankly Iraqi contracts were to valuable to risk a war. Thus UN blockage today. The Iraqi death and no fly zones the endless occupation in neighboring countries I doubt anyone thought the US serious about removing Saddam. WMD an issue yes it was before the war. And, they still are an issue. As I said, what upsets me is not the stupid retoric that "bush lied." That is ignorance at it's best. It is that US intel was so poor that we don't know where they are. I pray we did not loose them. The nuclear looting has not been to hard to track. (Follow the bodies.) Europe is placid now I understand that. Peace is good. Russia wants to just worry about the economy and Germany is a pasifist and can be. The US did a good job. (Maybe to good) I mean in the UK remember don't shout "help" if you are being robed on the street. Shout "call the police" because no one should help you. That would be exessive force and land you in jail most likely. Nobody should be upset over Europes stance on all of this. There you do not do things on your own. Society does it. ("Call the police") Thus the US is not following what is societies will, which is the UN and the media. All this is at the heart of the media issue with me. It is the ultimate formation of attitude in Europe. That what the oracle[tv] says is what the truth is. And the media is dominated by the left. Totally dominated.

I can't agree more with the people who say that the US is not the world's policeman. We have not the will to rule the world via empire, much less the ability. But, we should lead. Every dictator in the world is not could not be removed via force. But Saddam could easily and was without that much cost when you compare what is at stake. I like the overhauls to the UN and NATO that are taking place. They are long overdue. I like it when dictators are eraticated. Some people say that now the world is more unstable. However, I fail to see how it was stable before. Bush lied about the Saddam ties to WMD? Hardly, history shows the pattern of this man [Saddam]. History shows that this is a man who has every intention of going back to war with the world. To him it never ended. (Just like others of history.)

865

WoMD ... so where are they?

by Simon in

now, the war is over, the weapons were not used and of course have not been found.. how threatening could they be if they did not even use them when being invaded by a massive force (of the countries they hate)?!

perhaps, as many suspect, they didn't use them because they didn't have them?.

now we're being told that we'll have to be patient and give them time to find them.

Jayson

Short conflict, less ammo kept war cost down By Laurence McQuillan, USA TODAY WASHINGTON — A short conflict that used fewer missiles, sparked fewer oil field fires and created fewer refugees than anticipated produced a lower-than-expected financial cost for the major combat in Iraq.


		Officials say the war lasted 26 days, from the launching of the first missiles March 19 until mid-April.
		By Roberto Schmidt, AFP

That means President Bush won't have to go back to Congress for additional funding this year, a step that could have revived the debate over the war.

A detailed account of expenses won't be complete for months, but senior administration officials say the cost of deployment and combat will be just less than the $62.6 billion Congress approved in March as emergency funding for Operation Iraqi Freedom. It is the first time officials have offered a tally.

The price for the combat phase is about $220 per American. The Persian Gulf War in 1991 cost $76 billion in today's dollars. Though other countries financed 80% of that war, the United States is bearing most of the cost of this conflict.

"The business plan for the war was roughly as successful as the military plan," Mitch Daniels said in an interview last week before he left the administration after two years as budget director. "The projections look pretty darn good."

Those projections offer a window into the administration's prewar expectations. What kept war costs down:

The administration budgeted for the military buildup and 30 days of heavy fighting and bombing, followed by several months of skirmishes. Officials say the war lasted 26 days, from the launching of the first missiles March 19 until mid-April, when Iraqi political and religious leaders met with U.S. officials on forming an interim government.
Fewer expensive high-tech weapons were fired. For example, as many as 200 anti-missile Patriots were expected to be fired, but less than 25 were used. Each Patriot costs $2.3 million.
Planners had earmarked $489 million to put out as many as 500 oil well fires that Iraqis might ignite. Fewer than 10 wells were set ablaze, which cost about $5 million to extinguish the fires and repair damage.
Planners budgeted $593 million to care for as many as 2 million refugees, a problem avoided when urban combat was less extensive than expected. The refugee count was less than 100,000. In addition, $200 million was earmarked for emergency food supplies for Iraqis, but no major shortages occurred.
Troops are staying longer. The plan called for shipping more than 400,000 troops and equipment to the region and returning most of them within six months, at a round-trip cost of $30 billion. Now, at least 160,000 troops are staying in Iraq indefinitely, which means the cost of bringing them home can be deferred.

Daniels and other officials have refused to estimate the costs of the postwar violence, peacekeeping and reconstruction in Iraq, and that has prompted complaints from Capitol Hill.

"This stretches the tolerance and good humor of members," said Senate Foreign Relations Chairman Richard Lugar, R-Ind.

The Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments, an independent policy research institute, said the five-year cost for U.S. peacekeeping could exceed $100 billion. Estimates for rebuilding Iraq run as high as $30 billion a year for the next decade.

52

What was the "final straw" that made you leave the JW's ??????

by run dont walk in

jw
friends

what happened or was said, that made you decide, enough is enough, i am out of here ?????

?

Jayson

For those who don't know me I have never been a JW. I married onto the cult. I was unprepared and unenlightened at to what the borg is.

The final and last straw for me was when my father in law said that the goal (his goal!) was to hurt his daughter and her family. That's the reason for having a relationship with us. That way she knows that it will stop if she just comes back. (she is deft) All ties were broken at that point with all JW's.

"By the fruits they bare you will know them."

To many stories like this make it an isolated case.

41

Do You Try To Get Along With Other Members Of This Board?

by minimus in

jw
friends

sadly, at times, we lose good posters because we have an acrimonious spirit.

i wonder whether we might actually debate or argue, simply for the thrill of trying to outdo the other person(s).

in the spirit of rodney, "can't we just get along?

Jayson

Hey right back at ya Az. I'm sure that we could have dinner anytime without either of us getting a fork in the forehead. I'd treat.

41

Do You Try To Get Along With Other Members Of This Board?

by minimus in

jw
friends

sadly, at times, we lose good posters because we have an acrimonious spirit.

i wonder whether we might actually debate or argue, simply for the thrill of trying to outdo the other person(s).

in the spirit of rodney, "can't we just get along?

Jayson

Great comeback Min. The answer is no. But witty... "One millon points to Minimus." Maybe an ex elder is no different than an ex member. I'll never know. I was more so wondering if ex elders gravitate towards that illusion of power/guidance again. My type A personality is trying to fix others problems and never saying no. (I have to be superman you know.) I don't do that anymore. But the ideals of still wanting to help others when it is quite possible if not enevitable that is the worst thing I could do are still there. Kind of one step away from being a chief enabler. I think the little things that we do that are pathological is one of the biggest hurdles to "getting along." Facing them and understanding it is one step towards "Personal Freedom." jmo

30

Why the US is great despite Bush!

by Realist in

jw
friends

all the heated debates about iraq have caused many americans here to think that several of us anti bush guys hate america and hate americans.. this is not the case!

i want to state emphatically that the us is a great country with great people!

i have lived in ny for 3 years and had a fantastic time there.

Jayson

After all the slaming going on for months this thread just makes everything ducky in my book. I'm sure European souls are lifted all over after once again taking such a high road and explaining their ~~arrogance~~ position once again.

With love ttfn

865

WoMD ... so where are they?

by Simon in

now, the war is over, the weapons were not used and of course have not been found.. how threatening could they be if they did not even use them when being invaded by a massive force (of the countries they hate)?!

perhaps, as many suspect, they didn't use them because they didn't have them?.

now we're being told that we'll have to be patient and give them time to find them.

Jayson

In holy city of Karbala, the U.S. occupation sits lightly

By Anthony Shadid, The Washington Post

KARBALA, Iraq - Hundreds of demonstrators surged through streets snarled with traffic. They coursed past the gold-leafed dome of one of Shiite Islam's most sacred shrines, past grimy walls plastered with portraits of young men killed by Saddam Hussein's government and past the hovels of pilgrims.

Through a rickety bullhorn came chants demanding that U.S. forces occupying Karbala pay the salaries of soldiers in the disbanded Iraqi army and pensions to veterans.

But the protest Monday was perhaps most remarkable for what was missing. Not once was there a chant denouncing the U.S. occupation, a staple of demonstrations elsewhere in Iraq. A request by U.S. troops for the crowd to make way for military vehicles prompted protesters to shout: "Get back! Get back!" The crowd hurriedly did.

In a city so sacred that its soil is used to make the stones on which Shiites bow their heads in prayer, the American occupation of Karbala - 1,110 U.S. troops in a city of 500,000 - has emerged as a rare example of a postwar experience gone right.

In gestures large and small - from reopening an amusement park with free admission to restoring electricity to twice its prewar level, from stopping looting with a rapidly reconstituted police force, to a conscious effort to respect religious sensitivities - Karbala seems to have avoided the bitterness and disenchantment that has enveloped Baghdad and other cities.

"It's not Fort Apache," said Marine Lt. Col. Michael Belcher, the city's senior American officer and a native of Temple Hills, Md.

Yet problems remain, and deep-seated fears linger over the future, many residents say. Complaints are rife over what many still perceive as too little security. The local government and police are seen as too weak, even corrupt. Clerics, some more militant than others, angrily trade rumors that U.S. servicemen drink alcohol, leer at women and distribute pornography.

Lurking underneath is a fear that once the Americans leave, even uniformly Shiite cities like Karbala will erupt in bloodletting as scores are settled from three decades of Saddam's rule and dozens of factions - many armed and claiming religious sanction - slug it out for supremacy.

"I'm one of the citizens who rejects the idea that the Americans leave," said Awad Rubai, a father of six. "Revenge is in the air. There would be chaos."

Here, the chief of the two-month occupation is Belcher, a hard-driving Marine with a crew cut and a sunburned, bulldog face. In other cities, such as Fallujah, where soldiers are fighting a smoldering guerrilla war, the U.S. military presence has proved provocative. In Karbala, Belcher, 42, is treated as a mix of ambassador and potentate, and he touts as a model the ability of his staff to engage the city council and police with the tacit blessing of key clerics.

Karbala is one of the few cities where government employees - 28,000 municipal workers and 31,000 retirees - were paid without interruption. To get the money for the salaries, troops had to escort a bank manager to neighboring Hilla to get approval from his supervisor to open his doors.

Blackouts are limited to a few hours a day, better than any time since the 1991 Persian Gulf War. Water filters were brought in to improve quality, a long-standing problem. And the city government distributed rations at the end of April.

In the dreary classrooms of the school that serves as Belcher's base, he chats with his staff about "micro-enterprise lending" - loans to help Iraqis start small businesses - as well as providing Internet access and upgraded equipment to the local television station.

"If all you have is a hammer," he said, "every problem looks like a nail."

At a soccer game on Saturday, just before dusk subdued the summer heat, the Iraqi police team took on U.S. Marines in newly purchased uniforms of blue and red. Belcher sat next to the police chief, Col. Abbas Hassani. Expletives poured from the American sidelines as the Marines rooted for an outgunned team that ended up losing to the Iraqis, 8-3. But it was all civility in the stands.

Belcher and Hassani called each other "general," even though both are colonels. Before the match, Hassani recounted, Belcher asked whether his men's shorts were modest enough. "They're the same as ours!" a surprised Hassani exclaimed.

865

WoMD ... so where are they?

by Simon in

now, the war is over, the weapons were not used and of course have not been found.. how threatening could they be if they did not even use them when being invaded by a massive force (of the countries they hate)?!

perhaps, as many suspect, they didn't use them because they didn't have them?.

now we're being told that we'll have to be patient and give them time to find them.

Jayson

Iraq museum exaggerated losses

By William Booth and Guy Gugliotta, The Washington Post

BAGHDAD - The world was appalled. One archaeologist described the looting of Iraq's National Museum of Antiquities as "a rape of civilization." Iraqi scholars standing in the sacked galleries of the exhibit halls in April wept on camera as they stood on shards of cuneiform tablets dating back thousands of years.

In the first days after Baghdad fell to U.S. forces, condemnation rained down on U.S. military commanders and officials in Washington for failing to stop the pillage of priceless art, while tanks stood guard at the Ministry of Oil. It was as if the coalition forces had won the war, but lost an important part of the peace and history.

Apparently, it was not that bad.

The museum was indeed heavily looted, but its Iraqi directors confirmed Sunday that the losses at the institute did not number 170,000 artifacts as originally reported in news accounts.

Actually, about 33 priceless vases, statues and jewels were missing.

"I said there were 170,000 pieces in the entire museum collection," said Donny George as he stood with beads of sweat glistening on his forehead in his barren office at the museum. "Not 170,000 pieces stolen."

George, the director general of research and study of the Iraqi State Board of Antiquities and the source for the original number, said the theft of 170,000 pieces would have been almost impossible: "No, no, no. That would be every single object we have!"

On Saturday, a team of U.S. investigators from the Customs Service and State Department released a summary of a preliminary report that concluded that of the 8,000 or so exhibit-quality, world-class pieces of jewelry, statues and cuneiform clay tablets, only 47 are unaccounted for.

Sunday, Iraqi officials at the museum confirmed the U.S. numbers, with a slight adjustment.

"There are only 33 pieces from the main collections that are unaccounted for," George said. "Not 47. Some more pieces have been returned." Museum staff had taken home some of the more valuable items and are now returning them.

George apologized for the confusion, which has caused anguish among Mesopotamia scholars and the general public alike, but essentially said it was not his fault.

George conceded that during the 48 hours when his museum was being looted, he was extremely upset with the Americans.

"I was very angry at the time, so much anger," George said. "But we should stop blaming each other. We're working together now."

10

getting along or avoidance.....you decide

by SpiceItUp in

jw
friends

in the spirit of minimus, as i just caught his thread about getting along with others here, and it posed a seperate question for me that actually came into play for me yesterday.

i'm not going to go into detail on that but the question remains nonetheless.. where do you draw the line at getting along with someone or merely just avoiding confrontation?

this comes into play in everyones life.

Jayson

You pose a very good question. Long, but good. Strait up no I don't keep quite. I do not lie. I do not play games. What's sad about that is often people who I respect disrespect me because I won't fall in line with them. If the tables were turned would they fall in line with me? No, and that is why I respect them. Some people go through thier whole life and never experience the freedom of self. And that is sad. I think that Mini likes to keep things simple. And simple is good. I need to remember that when I enter his threads.

To modern times, I have been looking back to the times of Ronnie in America. It was like now. Same people too screaming the sky is falling. No big deal. In a few years someone new will be around for us to bicker about. Religon and politics always open to debate and infuriate.

8

Bigots

by Phil in

jw
friends

the word "bigot" seems to be a word frequently used by jws.

i have also noticed that it is used frequently by participants on this board.

i have been called a bigot a couple of times by jws because i ask too many question they cannot answer.. .

Jayson

JW doctrine short by calling me a bigot make me a bigot or is the JW the bigot?

JW's are intolerant towards anyone with a point of view based in the reality of their history. They are zelots and believe that they are so rightous that they are exclusive to the elusive truth. You can not force someone to look at their own bias. That has to be something that is willfully done. Some people need the shackels of their slavory. Personal freedom and independent thought scares the hell out of them. If you do not believe that JW's have one ioda of "truth" to thier beliefs because of research and or personal experience on your part or even through others no, you are not a bigot. They just can't handle the truth. If you do not believe that they have truth because it is the Catholics or Moonies or the KKK who have the exclusive truth as you are part of one of those groups then yes, you may be a bigot. For me I believe that even if I ever find the elusive "truth" God will change it. It's the hunt for enlightenment that makes the journey worth traveling. I have no more access to superior truth than any JW. But, I do not seek to hurt others nor to control them. That is not God's will, it's mans pride. All cults miss that point. And that is why I call them evil.

@ 84 posts Phil welcome to the board.