Posts by mrhhome

26

Luke 12:45 - Does that mean the F&D can go "bad"?

by thedepressedsoul in

the more i read the gospels the more i get the feeling that jesus warns about organized religion or those that overbear on your faith telling you completely how to worship god.

let's say luke chapter 12 is talking about the f&s.

does vs 45 on mean that the f&s can turn bad so to speak?

mrhhome

Jesus absolutely warned about organized religion. On multiple occasions. In the week before his execution, he marched into Jerusalem and directly confronted the religious establishment. He stirred up so much trouble that they crucified him. Every organized religion eventually becomes corrupted by those who seek power and/or wealth.

I find it interest that Luke 12:45 is right before the passage the JW cite to shun families.

Caveats:

(1) Communities of faith need organization and leadership. The rank and file just need to be ready to fight or flee if the leadership twists the organization to suit there own needs. It happens to all organizations eventually.

(2) The religious landscape of Jesus's day was probably more complicated and nuanced than Luke (a Gentile writer) would protray it after the 70 AD destruction of the temple in Jerusalem.

43

Do you think JWs are dangerous, if yes why? If not, why?

by suavojr in

jw
friends

personally the jws to me are not dangerous.

on the other hand, many do think they are in fact a dangerous cult.

why are they dangerous?.

mrhhome

The JW are absolutely dangerous. Anyone who invokes the name of God to turn otherwise loving people against each other is evil.

I had JW in-laws for 13 years and got along great until I had to confront a JW issue. Only then did I get a first-hand view at how that cult has twisted the minds of otherwise good people. Only then did I really begin to comprehend how much they have hurt my wife over the last 30 years.

The JW may not be the only dangerous thing in the world, but they are still very dangerous.

340

Fallacies about Faith

by tec in

jw
friends

peace to you!.

this thread is about false things (some) atheists think theists believe.

this is not a thread about false things that atheists think about theists.

mrhhome

A few atheists are ruining the reputation and respect of all atheists. It boils down to what your objective is. If it is convince, respect is important. Recent posts upset me b/c they reminded me of my JW father with the autocratic manner. You must believe this or you are garbage! I will enforce belief! The GB has existing structures if I want that in life. I don't think that this forum is only for lurkers. Imagine a lurker reading these posts. Vomit? Someone will find the Witnesses very enticing after a glimpse. It feeds into all the JW propaganda.

+1

Both sides of this debate need to reconsider tactics.

Repeating confessions of faith like an incantation is not an effective way to influnence atheists. Actions speak louder than words. Referring back to my first post on this thread, the walking testimony to our beliefs should be our "fruits of the spirit." If we are not demonstrating "fruits of the spirit", how can we claim that anything we believe is real?

Likewise, I challenge some of the atheists to ponder their reactions. Why does this topic provoke such an emotional response?

340

Fallacies about Faith

by tec in

jw
friends

peace to you!.

this thread is about false things (some) atheists think theists believe.

this is not a thread about false things that atheists think about theists.

mrhhome

FlyingHighNow made an excellent point about justice and mercy. Justice simply requires impartiality. This does not inherently preclude mercy.

340

Fallacies about Faith

by tec in

jw
friends

peace to you!.

this thread is about false things (some) atheists think theists believe.

this is not a thread about false things that atheists think about theists.

mrhhome

So I repeat the question: give me ONE example of a FACT that was unknown at the time of Jesus, but that is common knowledge today, and accepted as a FACT; perhaps something Jesus revealed which was something ONLY the Son of God could know... - adamah

That is easy. He predicted the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem, which occurred almost 40 years later. Of course, the story is told in a gospel supposedly written after the destruction of the temple, and that story is used to date the writing of the scripture. Then again, if Jesus really did predict the destruction of the temple, that is not a valid way of dating the writing of those scriptures.

Establishing verifiable facts is difficult with any historical event. Study ancient greek history. There is all sorts of academic debate on historical events and figures even without supernatural phenomena. Unfortunately when studying history, you have a single unique event which is often recorded by biased writers decades later. You can conduct all the critical analysis that you want. Ultimately, you just will never know what actually happened. You just pick a version of the story that you believe.

340

Fallacies about Faith

by tec in

jw
friends

peace to you!.

this thread is about false things (some) atheists think theists believe.

this is not a thread about false things that atheists think about theists.

mrhhome

Hmmm, it sounds to me like someone's using their "horribly flawed mortal (fallible) moral compass" to reach moral decisions anyway? Isn't that a sin? - adamah

No, ultimately everyone has to follow their own moral compass. What else are we going to follow? If we sincerely seek the will of God in prayerful consideration, I believe that the we will be led by the Holy Spirit.

Do we run the risk of being misled by our own selfish desires? Of course, that is always a risk. At the same time, I believe that blindly following scripture or church doctrine without applying reason and prayerful consideration is equally dangerous.

As for the role of reason in all this, the church has advocated the application of reason for almost two millennia. The Church father Augustine of Hippo advocated the use of reason. John Wesley, the founder of the Methodists, advocated reason. This is not a new concept. Unfortunately, some of this rich tradition has been abandoned by more modern movements such as JW.

Adamah, I think that you are having an imaginary argument with a fundamentalist or possibly a JW.

I'd say that it's more likely for there to be 7 billion concepts of God out there, which should tell you something: could it be that all these various images of God(s) are actually stemming from the images created in the minds of men? Ya' think? - mrhhome

Not necessarily. I know that 7 billion seems like a really big number, but it is infinitesimally small compared to the infinite. If we are all pulling on different strings of the infinite trapesty of God and his universe, we are all going to have slightly different perspectives.

[For all you mathematicians out there. Spare me the discussion about infinity and limits. I know.]

I've read many books on the subject already, but sure, what did you have in mind? - adamah

I am currently reading the "The Big Book of Christian Mysticism" in parallel to several house projects. Give me a chance to work through that book, and I will get back to you on Deuteronomy.

340

Fallacies about Faith

by tec in

jw
friends

peace to you!.

this thread is about false things (some) atheists think theists believe.

this is not a thread about false things that atheists think about theists.

mrhhome

adamah, I assume that you are talking about a scripture such as Deut 20. This is obviously a hard scripture. It has caused people to scratch their heads for almost two millenia. No, I do not condone slavery, nor do I condone killing gays.

Deuteronomy was written circa 600 BC about what someone (i.e. Moses) said God told them 800 years prior. Good reason alone to approach it with caution. Being a Methodist, I apply reason, tradition, and personal experience when studying scripture to discern God's will. Fortunately, none of which condone slavery or killing gays.

Is it "inspired"? I believe that the Bible is a story of people trying to understand God. It chronicles how their understanding of God evolved. Mistakes and all. As such, it is "inspired" in that we can learn from it. Sometimes, hard passages like this generate the most discussion, which is good. No, I do not believe that God changed his mind, even though I have heard some Christians claim as such.

There are books and books providing commentary on Deuteronomy. If you want, we can pick one that is mutually acceptable and begin a book review thread. Deuternomy has certainly generated considerable discussion in the church dating all the way back to Pauline letters.

Sorry that I do not fit into one of your pigeon holes.

340

Fallacies about Faith

by tec in

jw
friends

peace to you!.

this thread is about false things (some) atheists think theists believe.

this is not a thread about false things that atheists think about theists.

mrhhome

mrhhome - your previous statements read in context would suggest are a bigot...

I am certainly willing to have a rational, dispassionate discussion of the issues with someone who does likewise. This does not qualify.

340

Fallacies about Faith

by tec in

jw
friends

peace to you!.

this thread is about false things (some) atheists think theists believe.

this is not a thread about false things that atheists think about theists.

mrhhome

adamah, have I ever advocated following Deuteronomical law?

340

Fallacies about Faith

by tec in

jw
friends

peace to you!.

this thread is about false things (some) atheists think theists believe.

this is not a thread about false things that atheists think about theists.

mrhhome

Did you really just say that unbelievers are immoral?

My statement was pretty clear. What we believe impacts what we do. Some actions are moral and some immoral.

Would you deny that generally speaking Christians and athetist fall on different sides of important moral debates? [Abortion, same sex marriage, etc.]

I do, however, make a clear distinction between the actions and the people. With the exception of a few extreme cases, I would not label someone immoral, because we all fall somewhere on the spectrum. It is not my place to judge a person. However, I will (am obligated to?) decide what actions are right and wrong.