Posts by mrhhome

144

Escaping Indoctrination - Faith Isn't a Virtue.

by cofty in

the unknown writer of the gospel of john put the following words in jesus' mouth, "blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.".

persuading countless generations that it is a virtue to believe incredible things on insufficient evidence, is one of religion's cleverest tricks.. the more incredible the claim; the more flimsy the evidence; the stronger the belief; the greater the virtue.. this is the exact opposite of how we operate in every other aspect of our lives.. rational people must demand objective evidence for everything they are asked to believe.

"extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence".. leaving the dogmatic claims of the watchtower is only a first step.

mrhhome

Cofty

My problem is that those communities forget that they are dealing in myths rather than realities.

I think that an "intellectually honest" term would be speculation on the unknown rather than myths. Of course, the problem is not just limited to religion. You find much in the secular world that is labeled fact, which is not.

TATTelder

Also it's hard to seperate the subject matter from my anger toward WTBTS.

For what it is worth, I also have experience the same thing, and I was not even in the JW. I was just dealing with JW in-laws. I found myself asking a disturbing question. If they could twist and manipulate scripture this badly, what assurances do I have that I am not doing the same?

Steve2

What "works" for one culture - or for that matter one individual within a culture - dose not necessarily work for others.

Thanks for the tumbs up. Everyone has to figure out what they believe for themselves. Enforcing a belief system through emotional blackmail is obviously counterproductive on multiple fronts.

Having said that, Christianity can be boiled down to a couple of simple principles. (1) Putting our mistakes behind us, (2) Loving your neighbor, and (3) Self restraint. Which of those do not work in other cultures?

176

JW refuses to provide wedding stationery to Gay couple

by KateWild in

i was outraged at this and had to post it.. http://jehovahswitnessreport.com/blog/jw-refuses-to-provide-wedding-stationery-to-gay-couple.

i think she is a hypocrite and i bet she sells her invites to fornicators, or does she ask them if they are having sex before marrige, before she takes their money?.

i was never like this when i was a jw, it's even more disturbing that she is going to ask her elders what to do.

mrhhome

redvip2000,

That was a confused response which actually augmented my point.

First, civil marriage was governed by state law until the Surpreme Court decided to override multiple state laws and extend the Equal Protection Clause under the 14th Amendment to include sexual orientation. In doing so, it also ruled the Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA) unconstitutional. How can someone possibly conclude that an amendment that (1) ended slavery, (2) denied Confederate officers from holding office, and (3) voided the Confederate debt is relavent to sexual orientation? Is there any limits to how broad the equal protection clause can be intepretted?

Second, sexual orientation is rapidly becoming a "Protected Class." I would encourage you to investigate "Protected Class." You will notice that all of them are defined by a federal act. In the case of sexual orientation, the Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA) was specifically written to ensure that it was not a protected class.

Billy,

You have a solid point. I may have to yield this one. Having said that, the JW aren't going around suing business, and they do not have the mainstream media spreading their propaganda.

Qcmbr,

You have made the best counter point on this thread. It really should be the starting point of this conversation.

Freedom of religion is an explicitly protected constitutional right. The right to trade is protected (implicitly?) in the constitution and by federal law. As established by case law, homosexuals now have the right not to be discriminated. The courts have essentially decided that when those rights collide, the right of homosexuals trump that of the right to trade (or not) and freedom of religion.

It is very disturbing that the courts are saying that one's sex life is more important than (a) the right to trade (or not) and (b) the freedom to act on your religious beliefs. ????

There was an interesting article published approximately one month ago. It showed that the number of new businesses in this country have been cut in half over the last 30 years. The more rules you impose on new businesses (especially one dictating who they need to serve and requiring that they ignore their religious beliefs), the more that they are going to stop serving the public.

176

JW refuses to provide wedding stationery to Gay couple

by KateWild in

i was outraged at this and had to post it.. http://jehovahswitnessreport.com/blog/jw-refuses-to-provide-wedding-stationery-to-gay-couple.

i think she is a hypocrite and i bet she sells her invites to fornicators, or does she ask them if they are having sex before marrige, before she takes their money?.

i was never like this when i was a jw, it's even more disturbing that she is going to ask her elders what to do.

mrhhome

The SCOTUS and other national courts have determined that it is against their respective constitutions to discriminate against, among others, the LGBT community..

Let's talk about that for a moment. We fought a Civil War and passed a constituational amendment to end slavery. We past another constituational amendment to allow women to vote. We passed a federal law to end discriminstation against African Americans.

However in case of homosexual marriages, there has been no constitutional amendment. Quite the opposite, there were federal and state laws and state constitutional amendments opposing it. Suddenly, the SCOTUS decides to take sides in a social debate to override the will of the majority.

It did so without the backing of any federal constituational amendments or laws.

This is the real threat. We have a president who will only enforce laws he likes and uses executive orders to do what he wants. We have a congress which has effectively surrended its constitutional duty to control the purse. We have a SCOTUS that is legistlating from the bench in opposition to federal and state laws.

Once again, go ahead and cheer. You reap what you sow. What you are sowing is anarchy and tyrrany.

176

JW refuses to provide wedding stationery to Gay couple

by KateWild in

i was outraged at this and had to post it.. http://jehovahswitnessreport.com/blog/jw-refuses-to-provide-wedding-stationery-to-gay-couple.

i think she is a hypocrite and i bet she sells her invites to fornicators, or does she ask them if they are having sex before marrige, before she takes their money?.

i was never like this when i was a jw, it's even more disturbing that she is going to ask her elders what to do.

mrhhome

Obviously, most of you believe that this woman was wrong to deny this couple service.

Are there any acceptable reasons for denying someone service?

176

JW refuses to provide wedding stationery to Gay couple

by KateWild in

i was outraged at this and had to post it.. http://jehovahswitnessreport.com/blog/jw-refuses-to-provide-wedding-stationery-to-gay-couple.

i think she is a hypocrite and i bet she sells her invites to fornicators, or does she ask them if they are having sex before marrige, before she takes their money?.

i was never like this when i was a jw, it's even more disturbing that she is going to ask her elders what to do.

mrhhome

SyntaxError1974

She had many options other than being offensive.

Yes and No.

You make a good point. There are many discrete ways to handle this that would avoid a lawsuit. The easiest is simply stating that you are busy and cannot fulfill their order.

At the same time, why can I not cite my religion as a reason for denying service? Am I not permitted to act on my faith? Am I not permited to mention religion in the public sphere?

144

Escaping Indoctrination - Faith Isn't a Virtue.

by cofty in

the unknown writer of the gospel of john put the following words in jesus' mouth, "blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.".

persuading countless generations that it is a virtue to believe incredible things on insufficient evidence, is one of religion's cleverest tricks.. the more incredible the claim; the more flimsy the evidence; the stronger the belief; the greater the virtue.. this is the exact opposite of how we operate in every other aspect of our lives.. rational people must demand objective evidence for everything they are asked to believe.

"extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence".. leaving the dogmatic claims of the watchtower is only a first step.

mrhhome

Cofty,

Loyalty to a real person is a good thing until it begins to cause us harm.

Interesting statement. If our standard is that loyalty is a good thing until it causes harm, why does that only apply to a "real person" and not God?

144

Escaping Indoctrination - Faith Isn't a Virtue.

by cofty in

the unknown writer of the gospel of john put the following words in jesus' mouth, "blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.".

persuading countless generations that it is a virtue to believe incredible things on insufficient evidence, is one of religion's cleverest tricks.. the more incredible the claim; the more flimsy the evidence; the stronger the belief; the greater the virtue.. this is the exact opposite of how we operate in every other aspect of our lives.. rational people must demand objective evidence for everything they are asked to believe.

"extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence".. leaving the dogmatic claims of the watchtower is only a first step.

mrhhome

I see Mr Home is already diving for cover with the last resort of the god-apologist

Can you show me were my statements where inconsistent with past statements? If you could prove the existance of God, it would not be called "faith."

My position is consistent. The scientific body of knowledge is a small island in a vast sea of the unknown. I subscribe to a traditional set of beliefs about what lies in the unknown, because it has proven to work in my life. Having said that, I also recognize that it is good to periodically question your beliefs.

To re-iterate my answer to the original OP. No, I do not believe that unquestioning faith is a virtue. Quite the opposite, I believe that it can be dangerous and make one vulnerable to manipulative people.

144

Escaping Indoctrination - Faith Isn't a Virtue.

by cofty in

the unknown writer of the gospel of john put the following words in jesus' mouth, "blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.".

persuading countless generations that it is a virtue to believe incredible things on insufficient evidence, is one of religion's cleverest tricks.. the more incredible the claim; the more flimsy the evidence; the stronger the belief; the greater the virtue.. this is the exact opposite of how we operate in every other aspect of our lives.. rational people must demand objective evidence for everything they are asked to believe.

"extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence".. leaving the dogmatic claims of the watchtower is only a first step.

mrhhome

Karen Armstrong also advocates a separation of faith from logic, and blames the mixing of the two for much of the problems with fundamentalism. It leads to untenable, ridiculous positions.

Thanks jgnat. That is thought provoking. When I get through my current reading backlog, I may read some of her books.

176

JW refuses to provide wedding stationery to Gay couple

by KateWild in

i was outraged at this and had to post it.. http://jehovahswitnessreport.com/blog/jw-refuses-to-provide-wedding-stationery-to-gay-couple.

i think she is a hypocrite and i bet she sells her invites to fornicators, or does she ask them if they are having sex before marrige, before she takes their money?.

i was never like this when i was a jw, it's even more disturbing that she is going to ask her elders what to do.

mrhhome

From a legal perspective, the JW can avoid miltary service and pledging allegiance on religious grounds, but not refuse service to the LGBT community.

Am I the only one who finds this odd?

176

JW refuses to provide wedding stationery to Gay couple

by KateWild in

i was outraged at this and had to post it.. http://jehovahswitnessreport.com/blog/jw-refuses-to-provide-wedding-stationery-to-gay-couple.

i think she is a hypocrite and i bet she sells her invites to fornicators, or does she ask them if they are having sex before marrige, before she takes their money?.

i was never like this when i was a jw, it's even more disturbing that she is going to ask her elders what to do.

mrhhome

LisaRose,

I think in the end most businesses will see that it's not good business to turn away paying customers.

Actually, the evidence is pointing in the other direction. If you look at the businesses which have defied the government (either birth control issue or LGBT), their business has boomed. The baker in CO, Hobby Lobby, Chick-fil-a, etc.

There are all sorts of creative ways for a business to side step this issue. Once again, go ahead and cheer. In the end, you will find yourself with less service providers and paying more.