Posts by shiloh

6

Reprints of Mag articles from Evolution book

by shiloh in

anyone have any direction i can go in to get reprints of the magazine articles quoted in the "life" book?

Reprints of Mag articles from Evolution book

by shiloh in

anyone have any direction i can go in to get reprints of the magazine articles quoted in the "life" book?

shiloh

I'd be looking for:

Discover, October 1980
Scientific American, September 1978
Popular Science, November 1979

6

Reprints of Mag articles from Evolution book

by shiloh in

anyone have any direction i can go in to get reprints of the magazine articles quoted in the "life" book?

shiloh

Anyone have any direction I can go in to get reprints of the magazine articles quoted in the "life" book?

32

My JW Friends reaction to the Vicki Boer press release

by shiloh in

i forwarded the press release to my jw friend yesterday afternoon and we talked about later that evening when i saw her.

i could see that she was confused and somewhat bewildered.

she first wanted to know more details about the case itself and when i supplied them, she became even more confused.

kj,

Honestly, that was the reaction I would've expected from my friend had I just been asking her about the case itself. With the latest ruling on the court costs, I was able to pretty much marginalize the particulars of the case and focus on the money ruling. Decisions on wrongdoing can always be second guessed or minimized by an apologist. What I was trying to focus on was the action of the WT in the court cost portion of the case. There is much less wiggle room there. It's a pretty clear case of the WT "going after" someone in a retributive or vindictive way with the only real motivation to do so being revenge or intimidation or both.

I asked my friend, "Is this what Jesus would want? Would someone who is professing to follow the example of Christ do this (go after money) to someone who has already been hurt so profoundly whether it's the fault of the WT or not?" She answered "no, of course not."

32

My JW Friends reaction to the Vicki Boer press release

by shiloh in

i forwarded the press release to my jw friend yesterday afternoon and we talked about later that evening when i saw her.

i could see that she was confused and somewhat bewildered.

she first wanted to know more details about the case itself and when i supplied them, she became even more confused.

shiloh

kj, Goto to the News section on silentlambs. It's in there, I believe.

32

My JW Friends reaction to the Vicki Boer press release

by shiloh in

i forwarded the press release to my jw friend yesterday afternoon and we talked about later that evening when i saw her.

i could see that she was confused and somewhat bewildered.

she first wanted to know more details about the case itself and when i supplied them, she became even more confused.

shiloh

I forwarded the press release to my JW friend yesterday afternoon and we talked about later that evening when I saw her.

I could see that she was confused and somewhat bewildered. She first wanted to know more details about the case itself and when I supplied them, she became even more confused. Her first comment was that it didn't sound right and that Elders would never do something like that to a little girl. She said that they (meaning her congregation) have always been instructed to report anything of the sort to authorities and that she doesn't believe that this could happen. I redirected the conversation a bit and asked her, irrespective of the actions by the Elders, what she thought about the WT going after Vicki for the court costs. Again she said that something didn't seem right about what I was telling her and that the GB wouldn't do something like that because JW's are not "that way", meaning not vindictive and hypocritical. When I told her that this was a matter of court record and not just some story floating around the internet, she said some things about how there are alot of people who are trying to hurt the WT by saying bad things about them that aren't true and that you can't believe what ex-witnesses say because they just want to hurt the Org. After she finished I asked her if she believed the stories about the abuse in the Catholic church and she said "Oh yeah, I figured those guys were sickos". After she said that she got this look of realization on her face Like she understood my point. I then asked her, who would she rather talk to in order to find out what really goes on the in the Catholic church, an active priest or and ex-cardinal? Her answer was immediately...."Oh an ex-cardinal, of course!" I asked her why and she said that an active priest would never tell you the real story. Again, I didn't say anything but just looked at her with a look like "Uh huh..so..." and she seemed to realize the hypocrisy of her statements.

She expressed doubt, several more times about the validity of the story on the judges ruling. Again, she didn't seem defensive at all, just confused and reluctant to believe it. Finally I asked her, that, assuming it was true, what were her thoughts about it. She replied that if it IS true, then the WT is wrong and it isn't right that Vicki should have to pay the money. I asked her if she agreed that it was hypocritical of the GB to go after Vicki like this, in light of the things they teach in the literature and she said that it was wrong. The last question I asked was this: "Assuming the abuse claims are true, as the judge ruled, and assuming that the policy of not reporting such things to the authorities is true, what would that say about the GB?" She instantly responded with "That would mean that the Devil is in the Watchtower and God will take care of them." She followed that up by saying again, that she just couldn't see how this could be true because they (meaning the GB) aren't "like that".

It's a bit frustrating not being able to convice her of the truth of the court ruling on the money when it's right there in black and white. I can see some difficulty in convincing her of the abuse itself but what do you do when you've shown them something and they just say, "I can't believe that's what happened"?

In any case, I hope that this has possibly planted the first seed of doubt. I'm going to let it sit for a little while before I water it again.

118

VICKI BOER CAMPAIGN FUND

by Dansk in

jw
friends

if you'd be interested in donating $us10.00 or anything at all to a campaign fund for vicki please say so here.

this will help determine how strongly we can offer vicki support.. i'll start it off.

i'm willing to donate $us10.00 to the fund.. thanks.. dansk

shiloh

Same here...I'm in.

16

Questions from a non JW

by shiloh in

jw
friends

i have a couple of questions that have come to mind as a result of converstations with my jw girlfriend.

1. we were talking the other day and got on the subject of disfellowshipping and i asked her if she thought it was right.

i also asked her about people who had been df'd for something that the wt has since received "new light" on and thus, had been df'd for something that the wt is now teaching is okay.

shiloh

RDW,

Please forgive any formatting craziness in this post. I haven't figured that part out completely.

"not to cause a fight, but it is a big no no to date someone who is NOT a JW, one of those unwritten rules they have, would you dare ask her that question ??? Does she think that she will convert YOU when push comes to shove ??? just a thought, speaking from so many experiences.

If she was to go to the elders and say she is going out with someone who is not a JW, sh-- will hit the roof at the Kingdom Hall. Especially in the USA/Canada."

Well, I guess I am actually aware of that fact but it doesn't seem to bother her at all. In fact, she doesn't seem to be bothered by alot things that I've always understood to be major no-no's to the JW's. I get the impression that she really only joined because she was lonely over there and that the social aspects of the Org were what she was attracted to. She even made the comment that she really had fun at meetings "after we were done studying bible stuff". She's only had a taste of the Org in the U.S., I guess, and the results were not what she expected. Along the way, through the socializing though, she's bought into many of the beliefs.

When we first started dating and I found out she was a JW I started doing a fair amount of research (open mindedly too) into the doctrines and practices. I can't say that I think that the WT is God's channel after reading the things that I've read both here and in other places around the web. My first inclination has been to try and show her some of this stuff in an attempt to get her out of it but since she really isn't practicing, I haven't felt the need to really try. My own religious convictions are somewhat agnostic at the moment and so her being a JW is not a big deal to me.

The only thing that worries me, is the blood issue. I asked her the other day if she would refuse blood if she needed it and she said "probably". She means the world to me and the thought of having to stand by and watch her die because of something like the JW's policy on blood would probably be more than I could bear. Based on her rather lax adherance to other doctrinal issues of the WT, I'm hopeful that I might be able to convince her that the blood issue, at least, is questioned (albeit no openly) by other JW's and that there might be hope of a change of heart on this particular point.

She trusts me and I think she'll listen but I'm still concerned that she'll take a defensive and reactionary stance to anything I might say.

16

Questions from a non JW

by shiloh in

jw
friends

i have a couple of questions that have come to mind as a result of converstations with my jw girlfriend.

1. we were talking the other day and got on the subject of disfellowshipping and i asked her if she thought it was right.

i also asked her about people who had been df'd for something that the wt has since received "new light" on and thus, had been df'd for something that the wt is now teaching is okay.

shiloh

I have a couple of questions that have come to mind as a result of converstations with my JW girlfriend. 1. We were talking the other day and got on the subject of Disfellowshipping and I asked her if she thought it was right. I also asked her about people who had been DF'd for something that the WT has since received "new light" on and thus, had been DF'd for something that the WT is now teaching is okay. I specifically asked if those DF'd people were let back in. Her answer was kinda vague, she said "Oh the elders are in constant contact with anyone who is DF'd and they are always checking on them to be sure they are okay.". She never really answered my question but I'm curious if her answer is correct. Do the elders keep in touch with DF'd people? I'm not implying that she's lying to me or anything but I wonder if she's been told something that isn't true. 2. She has been living in another country for the past several years and it was during this time that she became a Witness. She has expressed that she really enjoyed the social aspect of the org. in the country where she lived and that the people were really great. She's been in the States for a while now and hasn't been attending any meetings. When I asked her why not, she told me that she went once and that she felt like she was suffocating in the Kingdom Hall. Like she was drowning. She also indicated that she had gone to another meeting (in a different state) some years ago when she was visiting and had the same feeling. Her specific quote was "I felt like I was surrounded by Mormons". Has anyone else experienced anything like this? Are the congregations in other countries different? More liberal or something due to thier distance from Bethel?

3

Another Introduction

by shiloh in

jw
friends

i've been lurking here for a few weeks now and thought i would officially pop in and say hi.hi!

i'm not a jw nor have i ever been, but a combination of things lead me here.

one, i've been christian all of my life but have recently begun to question my beliefs in god, the bible and religion in general.

shiloh

Hi everybody. I've been lurking here for a few weeks now and thought I would officially pop in and say hi.Hi! I'm not a JW nor have I ever been, but a combination of things lead me here.

One, I've been Christian all of my life but have recently begun to question my beliefs in God, the Bible and religion in general. The more I research, the less sure I seem to be about it all. I've been looking into a lot of things that I've never looked at before without the filter of my Christian upbringing in the way. It's been very interesting and sometimes a bit frightening to find that I don't really have a firm grasp of WHY I've believed what I have all of these 30 years. I guess I've just done so because that's what I was raised in. I've been looking at Evolution in a new light as well as giving alternate doctrinal issues a previously unheard of amount of consideration.

Secondly, I've become reaquainted with an old friend after many, many years. Formerly Catholic, this friend is now a Witness. I've been brought up being told that the JW's are a cult and not "real" Christians so my initial reaction to this news was quite negative. I didn't say anything to my friend of course but the news was disturbing to me. In keeping with my new found desire to be open minded about things spiritual I decided to do some research to try and find out for myself what the Watchtower is about. This has been going on for several months now and I must say it's been an enlightening quest. I've read several of the documents on watchtower.org ("Should you believe in the Trinity"..etc) as well as the rebuttals that have been posted by numerous folks in places all over the web. It's a difficult thing to keep my "bias" out of it when trying to decide who is right. The Watchtower doesn't make it any easier for me to be open minded by including demonstrably misquoted information and dubious sources represented as "experts" in their literature. The pattern of misdirection and misleading information is just too great and too blantantly obvious for me to ignore it.

I suppose the question weighing on my mind now is whether or not to try and present any of this to my friend. I've read alot about the negative things people experience while in the Organization but I don't really see any of this with my friend. In fact, there seems to be a blatant disregard for many of the things that make a JW a JW. Birthdays, mothers day, Christmas, associating with non-JW's. My friend seems to have no problem with any of it. Oh, if a card or something is given, there'll be a statement made along the lines of "oh I don't need things like this" but never anything as strong as "please don't do this for me it's against my religion". There doesn't seem to be any real strong aversion to the things that I read about which JW's are supposed to be so virulently opposed to. My friend even attended Church with me a few times before I really started questioning my own beliefs. There have been several occasions where the statement was made that "if the elders could see me now, I'd be out in a heartbeat".Odd that. I do know that the Doctrines of the Watchtower have been fully accepted. On the couple of occasions when bibilical things have been brought up, I sense a very uncharacteristic arrogance and condescension take over my friend as I'm told that I need to be shown what the Bible REALLY says. It's really hard for me to not get argumentative and angry when this happens. I know, however, that I don't have the Bible knowledge of the average JW so I'm hesitant to try and get into a scriptural argument. Frankly, since I'm not certain anymore of what I believe and since my friend doesn't seem all that "into" the organizational part of the WT I'm not sure why I feel so compelled to do something about it. Maybe I just hate to see a friend being lied to so blatantly. I dunno. If you knew a friends spouse was cheating on them but they were happily unaware, do you tell them?

It's a bit puzzling considering all that I've read about JW's. I get the sense that my friend feels as if, as long as the org. doesn't find out about things, it's okay and your still a JW. Does that mean that God doesn't know as long as the org doesn't know? If you commit a disfellowshippable (is that a word?) offense, even if no one knows, are you not "self-disfellowshipping"? Has God not seen what you've done? Would the end result not be the same? Meaning, you'll be killed at Armageddon.

Anyway, that's my story. I doubt that I'll be posting much because I don't think I really have that much add but I must say that some of the discussions I've read here have been the best I've ever read, anywhere, on any topic. I'll pipe in with questions occasionally, I'm sure.

Returning to lurk mode.
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Shiloh