Deddaisy- such an open forum for discussion takes away control. From where I sit both sides love control. Its got to be my way or no way at all- the WT condemns the beliefs of others and condemns those who do not align themselves with thier movement- the same is true of silent lambs- at least seemingly so from what I have seen. It seems to have developed into a us against them mentality instead of a what can we do to aid abuse victims mentality. That to me is the failing of the movement and why I refuse to align myself with an organization that so freely and often attacks others. When I was df'd I accused the eders of being on a witch hunt- I get the same feeling of the silent lambs. Advertising in hopes of finding new accusations and jumping on sensational allegations without thought or deep research.
kelsey007
JoinedPosts by kelsey007
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Post by Ray Franz
by Amazing inray franz requested that i post the following comments written by him:
as has been stated already, the presentation made from the silent lambs source in connection with the child abuse issue completely misrepresents my position.
when i spoke by phone recently with the author of that presentation, and pointed out that i had never expressed the views presented, his comment was that from his previous conversation with me (held some months earlier) he "got the impression that i was not on the same wave length" with him.
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Post by Ray Franz
by Amazing inray franz requested that i post the following comments written by him:
as has been stated already, the presentation made from the silent lambs source in connection with the child abuse issue completely misrepresents my position.
when i spoke by phone recently with the author of that presentation, and pointed out that i had never expressed the views presented, his comment was that from his previous conversation with me (held some months earlier) he "got the impression that i was not on the same wave length" with him.
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kelsey007
Englishman thank you for bringing that point out. I totally agree.
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Post by Ray Franz
by Amazing inray franz requested that i post the following comments written by him:
as has been stated already, the presentation made from the silent lambs source in connection with the child abuse issue completely misrepresents my position.
when i spoke by phone recently with the author of that presentation, and pointed out that i had never expressed the views presented, his comment was that from his previous conversation with me (held some months earlier) he "got the impression that i was not on the same wave length" with him.
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kelsey007
gsark your loyalty to silent lambs could be called comendable. Your words however reminded me of what an elder said to me in 1973. He stated that if the WT said that the JWs should start celebrating christmas he would do so without question. That statement was what started many years of soul- searching for me in regards to my 100% loyalty to the organization. Is it man or an organization that I align myself with or is it truth? My JW experience taught me the vital lesson that never again would I pledge 100% loyalty to any man made effort. I would question each thing brought to me and sort it out with what I believed to be godly values. The same arguments used in support of silent lambs can and are used by supporters of the WT. For those who have tired of such reasonings it is insulting to the intellegence to justify bad conduct of one while condemning the bad conduct of others.
"Way back on August 5, this subject came up on this board and was met with derision and contempt. How sad. It could have ended right there."
The same could be said for the contempt that silent lambs seemingly holds for those who do not align themselves with their efforts. Though supporters of the silent lambs feel free to criticize those who do not align themselves with the movement they do not allow for such criticism to be brought to them and do not want to afford those whom they critisize the opportunity to defend their side of an issue. We, the ones not actively aligning ourselves with silent lambs, are treated as apostates of the movement- how strange.
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Post by Ray Franz
by Amazing inray franz requested that i post the following comments written by him:
as has been stated already, the presentation made from the silent lambs source in connection with the child abuse issue completely misrepresents my position.
when i spoke by phone recently with the author of that presentation, and pointed out that i had never expressed the views presented, his comment was that from his previous conversation with me (held some months earlier) he "got the impression that i was not on the same wave length" with him.
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kelsey007
Though it is wonderful that Franz has taken his time to respond to such it is a shame that there was ever a need. I have gotten in much trouble here for making the statement that much damage has been done due to such personal attacks. Clearly Franz has been troubled that such allegations were slung at him. I know from personal experience here that words are easily twisted and motivation and meanings are freely imputed. Mr Franz response again shows the quality of this man. He is a good example for all ex-jw's here. This situation should be a lesson for all in slinging mud at others and twisting the words of others.
"Similarly, to say that because one does not choose to align himself with a certain movement (whether Silent Lambs or any other anti-Watch Tower movement) he thereby can be labeled an apologist for the skewed Watch Tower policies is unjust and hence unchristian. "
This is the point! How well I know! Thank you Mr Franz- from one who chose not to align myself with silent lambs.
Edited by - kelsey007 on 24 October 2002 14:6:32
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What do we believe?
by elihab50 ini am a catholic and am curious to know what jehovah's witnesses really believe.
i have heard many things but would rather recieve things right from the source.
i would like to know what differences you have with catholicism based on what you know or have heard.
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kelsey007
Jehovahs Witnesses believe:
1. God created man to live on earth.
2. Satan was an angel that challenged god's supremecy.
3. Mans sin was a siding with that rebellion.
4. God provided a means to vindicate his name.
5. Those that proved themselves rightious would hold out a hope to be raised from death into a New World. Eternal life on a cleansed earth brought back to paradisaic conditions much lie the Garden of Eden. All wickedness to be removed from the earth at armagedon.
6. 144,000 earthly annointed would be awarded heavenly life to judge over humans and joint heirs of god's heavenly kingdom.
7. Jesus acts as mediator between man and god only for the remnant of this 144,000. All other- who share the earthly hope must support the efforts of this annointed remnant and accept thier direction as god's representatives on earth in order ot maintain a relationship with god.
8. Hell is the grave not a place of eternal torment.
9. After armagedon the dead will be raised. Those who never had the opportunity to learn the JW truth will be given the opportunity at that point. Druing this period Satan will be imprisoned and man will be allowed to prove himself without the influence of Satan for a thousand years after which Satan will be given the opportunity to test man after he has reached perfection- a adam like state. Falilure at that point will mean instantanious death for the sinful man. After that test satan will be peramantly destroyed and man will exist in his perfect state forever on earth.
10. Rightious man will gain eternal life on earth and wicked man will be put to death- a very real death. JWs believe that the soul dies when the body dies.
By the way- you will be hard pressed to find anyone here that would still agree with many of the JW teachings. Most here are EX-JWs who are glad to be away from this organzation.
Edited by - kelsey007 on 24 October 2002 13:44:41
Edited by - kelsey007 on 24 October 2002 13:46:59
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Witness publications bloodguilty?
by freedom96 inhave you ever been in a store, perhaps a laundry mat, dry cleaners, doctors office, etc and seen a few of the watchtower and awakes sitting there?.
obviously, someone needed to "place" some old mags, get their numbers up.
i remember doing this too during early morning street work.
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kelsey007
At the post office near where I live and have a box someone would always leave the mags laying out early in the morning. On each occassion I could never resist the urge to toss them in the trash can. I have noticed that the mags are no longer left there.
I always, even when I was a JW, felt that it was fraud to leave mags at such places when the real motivation was known as to be able to start your "time" prior to the meeting for field service. Of course I never agreed with the emphisis of "goals" and "reporting" your field service activities. This was one of the many things I questioned early on. Is the motivation teaching bible truths or meeting orginizational goals? That one always got me in trouble.
Bloodguilty? I personally do not believe that one will loose their "salvation" because of the organization they belong to. I thought that the bible teaches that god judges the heart. Doctrine to me is much less important than motivation of the heart. That is what I get from the teachings of Jesus- If that were not true would it not take away from the need of Jesus ransom sacrifise? Does being a JW mean that the ransom sacrifise of Jesus no longer applies to the JW? Does it only apply to non-JW's?
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Top 10 points proving JW belief is false.
by mamashel ini need some really good points to prove to my husband once and for all, everything i have learned so far is right.
we were talking again last night, and he actually for the first time said he would look at the information that i have found.
i have the coc book, and i dont want to throw a whole bunch of stuff at him at one time.
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kelsey007
1. No reasonable, believable explanaition presented by the WT for Jesus failure to use the name Jehovah- the name they claim as so important to use in referring to god.
2. Fact that the entire foundation of the WT for over 100 years has been the importance of dates (that have all been failed dates) in spite of the fact that Jesus is quoted as saying that NO MAN knows the day nor the hour NEITHER does the son.
3. The WT misleading statements to the rankand file. (i.e. the reason that was given for putting the magazine and publications placementson donation only status.
4. The missapplication of scripture such as Ez 34: 1- 5. Though they boast of being god's modern day nation of isreal- the shephards of god's people they fail to apply such scriptures to themselves. The scriptures that they so freely apply to "christendom" were used in the bible- not against "pagan" nations but against "god's people".
5.No sound, solid scriptural basis for a "governing body" type of arrangement.
6. The "Reasoning" book defines apostacy as an "abandoning or deserting the true worship and service of god, actually a rebellion against Jehovah God....Others claim to believe the bible but reject Jehovah's organization". Their definition here defies the bible. The scripural basis that they use here is based (numbers 16) on the story of Korah in standing up against Moses and Aaron. If this example is to be followed through then even Jesus and all his followers could be termed "apostates".
7. The WT emphasizes the importance of an earthly organization and the importance of being a member of said organization. If their claims are true, given that the WT is just over 100 years old, what of all the billions that lived on earth for over 2000 years prior to the founding of the WT and after Jesus death?
8. No sound scriptural basis for "judicial committees". Judges and such were part of the nation of Isreal. Jesus taught a much different approach- not to judge. No such committees are mentioned in reference to the early christian congragations.
9. The very name of the WT (Watchtower Bible and Tract Society) defines what the organization is about. They publish books and magazines. In the early christian congregation there was no central location or world headquarters. Their focus has been the distribution of such liturature.
10. Their application of "bible principle" is fluid. In Mexico the "brothers" were allowed to abtain political party cards while in other countries "brothers" endured prison, death, rape and such because the WT refused to allow those brothers ot accept such political party cards.
Though on the surface many of thier basic doctrines may seem well grounded in the bible and are appealing to ones senses thier belief that only they own "truth" and that truth can only be found in the WT has placed them into the "cult" realm. Jesus never said that you would know his people by the doctrine they held or what they believed or the organization they belonged to. Jesus said that you would know his people by the love they held. When asked what one must do to gain eternal life Jesus never referred to an earthly organization or a doctrine. He spoke of a way of life. This way of life is motivated by the heart. Though knowledge can be gained from many sources no man or organization holds the patent on truth. Truth belongs to god. When the Isrealites as a nation turned from "true" worship many in that nation chose to follow the apostate course of the nation in spite of what they had known was right and wrong. It seems certain that the likes of Ezekial were considered apostate by the leaders of Isreal. Just as Isreal developed an attitude of importance- feeling that the nation was more important than the god that they claimed to worship- so has the WT. The words of dedication used at baptisms clearly show this. In recent years the phrase has been changed to provide for an oath to the earhtly organization. Clearly this is in defiance to the power of the god they claim to follow.
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Jon walks again
by kelsey007 insome here have heard about my son and the loss of his feet due to bacterial menengitis.
yesterday he was finally fitted with his new feet.
after standing and taking steps he was promised his new feet for next wednesday!
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kelsey007
Jon has massive scars all over his body from the disease
One leg is shorter than the other. But he is alive! And he is still my son. Thank you all very much!
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Jon walks again
by kelsey007 insome here have heard about my son and the loss of his feet due to bacterial menengitis.
yesterday he was finally fitted with his new feet.
after standing and taking steps he was promised his new feet for next wednesday!
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kelsey007
Some here have heard about my son and the loss of his feet due to bacterial menengitis. Yesterday he was finally fitted with his new feet. After standing and taking steps he was promised his new feet for next wednesday! I will be in p'cola with camera in hand as my son finally walks out to my car. He was a very excited young man last night.
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Best wishes to all...
by kelsey007 inclearly there is a lot of hate still lingering among many exjw's.
my coming to these boards about a year ago was an intersting and a growing experience.
i have learned a lot and it has helped me to feel even better about my decision to leave the wt.
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kelsey007
Wind thank you....E-amil me if you can. I am leaving this insanity but would like to maintain the friendship.