Abaddon

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Posts by Abaddon

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  30

  JW Marriages - Loophole in wedding vows

  by Finally-Free in

  1. social
  2. relationships

  not being raised as a jw, i went to many church weddings, mostly in catholic churches.

  all the times i went to jw weddings i thought it unusual that they had their own vows, much different from the wedding vows used elsewhere.

  i remembered jws mentioning "divine temination" of marriages to me and thought the vows reflected that thought.

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  Abaddon

  Wow; you serve on the ISS and you get a scriptual divorce thrown-in for free!
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  16

  Meet the shock troops of the Christian right?

  by Makena1 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  meet the shock troops of the christian youth .

  tell a friend .

  battle cry for theocracy!

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  Abaddon

  XJW

  Because, as a general rule, it is the Judeo-Christian ethic that has bettered the conditions of man.

  So the JC world gets to rule with their own rules forever due to historical happen-chance? And all other people, of other religions and of secular viewpoints get to be grateful?

  Not something I can agree with; and that's without taking issue on the claim "as a general rule, it is the Judeo-Christian ethic that has bettered the conditions of man". The improvements in standards of living, equality, human rights, life-spans, education etc. have largely been tracable from the start of the period society began to be secularised.

  There's more evidence the betterment of the conditions of man have been due to secularism than a JC ethic. The JC ethic had failed to bring equality, education, justice, health - despite trying for almost 2,000 years. Secularism started the real beneficial changes.

  Why not base society on the principles of humans rights?

  Who is the arbiter of those rights, Abbadon?

  That's a strange question; you know the answer. Governments elected by people agree on the principles of human rights and have codified these on several occasions. You are as included in that process as your hypothetical atheist left wing next-door neighbour. Legal systems interpret and enfore those rights. If the people feel rights change (for example, allowing black people to vote), then in time they change.

  If I understood this leftists article, then I would have no rights since I am unenlightened Christian.

  I'm talking about human rights; you have as many of those as the next human. Why the sympathy card? There's no need for it; as a right-wing American male you belong to one of the largest and most influential groups on this planet.... not really any reason for you to sound so woe-begone. It amazes me how the white American Republican male can sound so sorry for itself when it has all the toys in the basket, on average.

  You do not however have the right to force your religious beliefs on others so by using them as a basis to build society on.

  You can be free and happy to worship as you want in a safe secular society. A humanist cannot have the same freedoms in a society based on a belief structure.

  Most of the left believe that human rights come from humans, therefore when they find that a right is inconvinient to them or a hinderance to their power hunger those rights get suspended.

  Please show me where this has happened in a modern democracy. In absense of such proof you are fear-mongering. Then for context, show me a JC ethic country that does not or has not violated human rights.

  The American democratic-republic, says that human rights are endowed be the Creator, and hence not subject to the whims of human government or opinion.

  Interesting point. Where in the document you have just cited (Declaration of Independence) does it say anything about a JC ethic being the basis of society? It might say that men are created equal in the sight of god, or words to that effect, but any doubt over the intent of this statement is cleared up by the 1st Ammendment, which clearly seperates government from religion.

  Are you suggesting a humanist secular society (where people can believe what they like provided they do no harm to others) cannot work as well as a JC ethic society?

  No, I am suggesting the opposite. That a secular humanistic society cannot function with people that posess a Judeo-Christian ethic. They are polar opposites.

  So the intolerence of certain religious individuals undermines a stable society? Because if some religious people believe god says x, and x violates human rights, it doesn't matter, as god said it? And this willingness to violate human rights due to religious beliefs is poison in a society based on human rights intrinsic to being a sentient human being that ride over and above any religious belief structure, being principles of fact rather than belief? Of course, you dont mean that, LOL. I do.

  Me and people like me are quite happy to live with people like you provided you don't harm anyone or infrige their rights. You apparently are not happy to live with us. You are free to dissent. But you apparently want to impose your beliefs on others; that's not dissent, that's oppression.

  What of the people (law-abiding good citizens) excluded by basing government on a JC ethic?

  Oh yes, the horror of not lying, stealing or murdering. What a terrible thing to force those prohibitions on people.

  Would you be so kind as to answer the question?
  
  

  Why not achieve the same fairness and tolerance a modern JC ethic society can attain in a secular way that includes all people of good will?

  If you could point out a secular humanistic society that has truly respected the rights of disenters, then I would have to reconsider my position. Until then, I'll stick to my guns.

  Errr... well, we can discount the USA, as it isn't secular in the sense of the European countries. I happen to live in probably one of THE prime examples of a secular, as humanist as any other country and more than many, society. Now, you have not proved any point here; you haven't proved that secular humanist societies do not respect the rights of dissenters. You making an unsupported assumption; ya know, like WoMD's? You are asking me to disprove something you have not proved - a logical impossibility if that's of any interest.

  But have a go; show how the Netherlands (famous for centuries as a place people run TOO to flee religious or other persecution) has NOT respected the rights of dissenters. And then show a JC ethic society that does better.
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  16

  Meet the shock troops of the Christian right?

  by Makena1 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  meet the shock troops of the christian youth .

  tell a friend .

  battle cry for theocracy!

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  Abaddon

  
  
  XJW
  

  
  Why do you and fellow Christians of like mind get to choose that government be influenced by the J-C ethic?

  Why not base society on the principles of humans rights?

  Are you suggesting a humanist secular society (where people can believe what they like provided they do no harm to others) cannot work as well as a JC ethic society?

  Or is it merely your preference?

  What of the people (law-abiding good citizens) excluded by basing government on a JC ethic?

  Why not achieve the same fairness and tolerance a modern JC ethic society can attain in a secular way that includes all people of good will?
• 
  81

  Excommunication is good!!!!

  by I-follow-the-narrow-path in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  while talking to my teacher today we talked about excommunication.

  i told her i thought it was mean to not talk to those members which have been excommunicated.

  she told me; however, that those who leave the church should be punished.

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  Abaddon

  Joe Grundy

  I liked what you said - but don't blame yourself. It is enough that you would have done that had you known.No one could reasonably expect you to know everything.

  Elizabeth

  Your responses are interesting;

  I control what I think, how I feel, how I talk and no one else.

  So you're saying that the contact you have with Witnesses, and your growing belief in what they say does NOT control how you think and feel? To me it sounds very much like you're being controlled.

  I read light stuff though... about cults and brainwashing. I do not believe any of it

  So are you saying there's no such thing as cults? Or that JW's are not a cult? What about Mormons, Moonies and Sociologists? Are they cults? If so, what is the difference between those characteristics that make them cults and those of the JW's?

  Being saved is not my ultimate goal here, for I already am anyway (in heaven) :) AND I do not say that because of the JWs.

  Errr... Newsflash. JW's do not believe in being 'saved'. They believe a small number (144,000) go to heaven to rule over humanity after Armageddon. Most of those have already died. Now there are a little under ten thousand JW's who claim to be of 'the remnant'. In JW land if you think you're going to heaven and are young or new, people will think you are mad. All other JW's believe they will live forever in Paradise on Earth.

  I wanted to know (assuming I would go through) I used to be a self harmer (in remission now). Under a lot of stree

  If you look into cults you will find people are most likely to get involved in a cult after some personal crisis. They provide simple solutions and answers, even if there are no simple solutions or answers. A hope. A way to feel better about the future. A comfort. A kiss in the darkness of the world.
  
  I come out of remission... what if the congregation saw I cut myself. Would they call that a misuse of blood? Would I be disfellowshipped? Can one before baptism get disfellowshipped?

  You have to be baptised to be disfellowshipped. Cutting would not be considered a disfellowshipping offence, as far as I know. Also, if you have suddenly found 'the Truth', why would you be self-harming again? Surely such a wonderful thing would make all those awful tensions only cutting can release be easier to handle? Or is it that you now feel you have all these new requirements to live up to, a conflict between how you feel and how your family would feel? More stress? Is being involved with the Witnesses part of your relapse? Your whole body and mind are telling you something. Listen.

  I totally understand when people say I do not need an organization. But look at it this way
  
  You have a big project do at school and you can not get it done in the one weekend. So you ask for help (org)
  
  I am trying to finish the project of getting closer to God... it is not as easy on my own.

  Although I am not what one could call a great believer, the idea of getting closer to god being a 'project' strikes me as a little odd. It sounds awfully mechanical, rule-based, like a tick on a list. The Organisation of the JW's will provide you with lots more mechanical, rule-based, box ticking.

  Where did you get the idea that developing a relationship with god is based on rules? Doesn't the whole of the New Testament scream about the possibility of a personal relationship with god? Not only available through the services of Priests and rule makers; look at how Jesus acted toward the Priests and the Pharisees!

  Think about it. Jesus came to free people from rule-based bureaucratic religious observance, to develop a personal relationship with god, and to conduct themselves rightly through the application of their conscience.

  And now many religious groups are rule-based bureaucratic organisations, having completely missed the entire point of what Jesus was talking about. And the JW's are one of those.

  God is not a brand or project. Don't look for him as you imagine him, or how people tell you he is. Look for him in the world around you. Truth isn't in a book. It's in living life as best you can, of touching others and allowing oneself to be touched, or valuing others and oneself. Of finding a place.

  I wish I could tell you it is easy. It isn't. But just as sweetener doesn't taste like sugar. the artificial hope these people are selling might give you the props to make it easy to act like you are happy, but they have no substance. JW's have missed the point and lost god, whatever god is, in a host of rules, just like the Pharisees did in Jesus' day.

  JW's cannot show in any way they are infallible and god appointed; there are dozens of religions who make this claim and none of them have any more real evidence than the other. God doesn't play games or make you guess. If there was a 'truth' in a book, it would be as provable as the fact the sun will rise.

  All the more indication you have to figure it out for yourself. Harsh but fair, sad but true.

  You critizing the WTBS feels like you attacking God... I don't know why it feels that way. It just does.

  Because they are controlling the way you think. Early on in their contact with people JW's will give the person they study with the impression they are likely to experience disapproval or opposition from friends and family, maybe even spiritual problems, as the wicked spirit of the world tries to dissuade the person from getting involved in the truth. Any opposition will reinforce any beliefs that person has about it being the truth.

  Of course, if someone got involved with a bunch of cultists - let's assume we can both agree Moonies are cultists - who would try and convert them, and their friends and family were concerned with the person's safety and well-being. It would be perfectly reasonable for them to be critical or oppose the involvement. If the Moonies had told the person they would be opposed, the fact people are doing totally reasonable thing is seen by the person involved with the cultists as evidence the Moonies is the 'truth'.

  I just do not understand, if it is "the faithful and descreet slave" Who are you to judge God?

  You seem to have made an awful lot of assumptions about god yourself.
  
  All the best to you; please, talk to the people you love about this, and about you starting self-harming again if they don't already know. Did you get counselling before? You should speak to your councillor. Don;t give into the paranoia the JW's try to infect you with. Professionals and your family are there to help you.
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  20

  Jesus' Chromosones

  by PopeOfEruke in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  all the ads for da vinci code and opus dei whatever got me thinking about the whole jesus-mary thing, and what genes jesus had.

  how was mary impregnated anyhow?

  the wt teaches that the big j turned jesus (or michael??

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  Abaddon

  One half of Jesus chromosones came from Mary. The other half from some Jewish bloke, NOT Joseph.

  Mary was just a very very very imaginative liar, and not only convinced her family and betrothed hubby she was not a "nasty little slut", but carried on with the story so convincingly Little baby Jesus grew up convinced his was the son of god.
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  81

  Excommunication is good!!!!

  by I-follow-the-narrow-path in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  while talking to my teacher today we talked about excommunication.

  i told her i thought it was mean to not talk to those members which have been excommunicated.

  she told me; however, that those who leave the church should be punished.

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  Abaddon

  The purpose of excommunication, disfellowshipping or 'shunning' is simple and has very little to do with anything other than preventing those with different opinions communicating those opinions to others.

  Imagine you are buying a car.

  You know some people have bought this kind of car before and were not happy with it and got rid of it.

  You ask the sales person (who naturally assures you this is the ONLY car for you) about the people who bought it and weren't happy with it and got rid of it.

  The person selling you the car says "Never talk to anyone who bought this car and then sold it. They are all liars and cannot be trusted".

  Would you buy a car from someone who said that? From someone who told you anyone who had experience of the car and said anything negative about it were liars?

  If a religion IS 'the truth', then it should be able to withstand criticism. A religion that sets things up so it is impossible to question it or criticise it is protecting itself from examination and criticism BECAUSE IT CANNOT STAND UP TO SUCH EXAMINIATION.

  Truth need not hide; any religion that shuns people who ask questions is hiding.

  Try asking your teacher about;

  1. Whether any apology or compensation was issued to the friends and family of people who died because they refused organ transplants prior to the 80's when they were forbidden to JW's?
  2. Why the doctrine on blood transfusions allows you to have EVERY PART of whole blood injected into you in its component forms (platlets, heamoglobin, etc.), but not to have a transfusion of the saqme blood in its original form. This is like saying 'Do not buy a stolen car - you can buy it piecec by piece and put it together and that's fine, but don;t buy the whole car'.
  3. Why the JW's heavily criticse other religions for the revison of doctrine WHEN THEY DO THE SAME THING THEMSELVES. For example, the definiton of 'generation' has changed from something which meant Armagedon would be here before 2000 to one where there is no time limit on when it might arrive.
  4. Why Mexican JW's were allowed by the Organsiation to bribe government officials and recieve a card exempting them from military service, whilst Malawian JW's were prohibited by the Organsiation from buying ID cards issued by the government. Having these cards was compulsory and those without them were uinable to easily buy food, and were often beated, raped, or killed for not having the card.

  I think the reaction of your teacher to you asking these questions and the answers they give you will be very interesting indeed...
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  56

  Do you believe that Demons really Exist.

  by MARTINLEYSHON in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the reason why i have asked such is question is that i served as a congregation elder for 12 years.

  i served as the presiding overseer for 10 years, and as chairman and media spokes-person for a particular region.

  during my time within the organisation that being almost 30 years, i have concluded that there is, as far as my own experience is concerned grave doubt in my mind as to the existence of the devil and his demonic hoard.

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  Abaddon

  In absence of hard evidence, and in light of the fact all 'demon' experiences are quite explicable by the fields of psychiatry and psychology, no.

  If they do exist they're pretty pathetic. Most human interactions every day are 'good'. If the spawn of satan is spreading evil, they're obviously not putting enough hours in. Probably submitting falsified reports...

  May

  Hours inciting sin 345

  Acts of sin incited 27

  Demonisations 12
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  14

  Teens who pledge virginity have difficulty keeping it up

  by zagor in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  virginity pledges, in which young people vow to abstain from sex until marriage, have little staying power among those who take them.

  more than half the adolescents who make such signed, public promises give up on their pledges within a year, according to a harvard study.

  the findings have raised the ire of concerned women for america, a conservative organisation that endorses adolescent sexual abstinence.

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  Abaddon

  greendawn

  I so agree! It is tragic abstinence based education (as favoured in the US) typically deprives those kids who do have sex of the knowledge to do it safely. Poorly executed sex education is just as bad; the difference between US and UK teen pregnancy rates and those in most European countries illustrates this nicely. Comprehensive sex education reduces teen pregnancy; it does not encourage earlier sexual activity as comparison of figures for the US and UK with Holland and France shows.

  Of course, the logical step (of sex education that encourages kids to masturbate can help delay them having sex too early) is something that makes many people squeamish... fourtuhately they find out anyway
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  14

  Teens who pledge virginity have difficulty keeping it up

  by zagor in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  virginity pledges, in which young people vow to abstain from sex until marriage, have little staying power among those who take them.

  more than half the adolescents who make such signed, public promises give up on their pledges within a year, according to a harvard study.

  the findings have raised the ire of concerned women for america, a conservative organisation that endorses adolescent sexual abstinence.

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  Abaddon

  If they have "difficulty keeping it up", then losing their virginity isn't going to be very likely, is it?
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  25

  Dan Brown DID NOT write "The Da Vinci Code"! [ VICTORY FOR CHRISTIANS !!! ]

  by danbrownfraud in

  1. social
  2. entertainment

  (i) they are to ask god, through jesus christ, for the truth on these matters.

  amen".

  amen".

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  Abaddon

  Oh, yeah...

  The witches you will be shown, help liars in the physical world by promoting their work via "Book Clubs"

  ... there was I thinking it was the Illuminati, and it was Reader's Digest all along...