Posts by Abaddon

72

Are you an a-xenist?

by AuldSoul in

jw
friends

"xeno" is a common taxonomical designation for aliens (strangers) including extraterrestrials.. are you someone who lacks belief in intelligent extraterrestrial beings?

do you believe it is possible that such extraterrestrial beings exist?

do you think it is possible or likely that our planet has had interactions with extraterrestrials?.

Abaddon

Beautifully put point Paralipomenon.

Obviously Terry is perfectly entitled to an opinion. I can't help but think 'can't happen' is less supportable than 'might happen' and just re-stating an argument and taking no real effort to address the faults in that argument is not going to change that.

Terry, you seem to miss that a sentient observer capable of asking such a question might arise on other planets, and say exactly the same things. Might. To say it can't requires bigger leaps of faith than to say it might.

There probably will be solar systems with planets that can support forms of life that could achieve sentience and develop technology. Such planets are below the limits of observability in other solar systems at this time; we can only 'see' super gas giants today, and I am for the sack of argument excluding any possibility of gas giants developing life with intelligent technology-using societies. Soon we could well prove this point.

Humans exist is just because that's how things turned out. The dominant sentient species with a technological society could have been descendant of marmosets or sea otters, for example. The factors which lead to the development of human sentience could have happened in other species, as they are more to do with sexual selection than survival to be able to breed; it wasn't our environment or specific (as in no others possibly could) ancestery that made us smart, it was what the females found attractive that made us smart. That was just happen-chance; females liking big colourful tails is nothing to do (directly) with fitness to survive - it's a bloody liability - it didn't really help Peacocks become more intelligent. What females pre-humans liked, selected in a mate, made humans become intelligent.

So just as there could be a planet with a guy called Terry ("Slayer of Empires" in T'chakian) with hydrogen peroxide mixed with the water in his body and 7 tentacles saying there isn't any where else life could evolve, a 6' tall marmoset called Terry ("Gatherer of nuts" in Chk!-Chk!--Ch~~~llk!) could be telling his kid that whilst showing them the giant chimps (Pan Terrestalis, one of three species in the Genus Pongo, see P. paniscus and P.troglodytes) at the Zoo.

72

Are you an a-xenist?

by AuldSoul in

jw
friends

"xeno" is a common taxonomical designation for aliens (strangers) including extraterrestrials.. are you someone who lacks belief in intelligent extraterrestrial beings?

do you believe it is possible that such extraterrestrial beings exist?

do you think it is possible or likely that our planet has had interactions with extraterrestrials?.

Abaddon

Para

I'd noticed that as well and cut back a rather cutting paragraph in my last reply to him as I thought a bit of benefit of the doubt was easy enough to give.

However, it has to be said, for a professed atheist Terry seems to truely consider giving (it out) is better than receiving (it back); he tried to make out he said what I said which I don't think he really thought for a moment, and either engages in similar obfustication or total evasion than admit to a weakness or error in argument.

Come on Terry, you have brains, use 'em. This disingenuousness gets old very quickly and people DO notice it.

72

Are you an a-xenist?

by AuldSoul in

jw
friends

"xeno" is a common taxonomical designation for aliens (strangers) including extraterrestrials.. are you someone who lacks belief in intelligent extraterrestrial beings?

do you believe it is possible that such extraterrestrial beings exist?

do you think it is possible or likely that our planet has had interactions with extraterrestrials?.

Abaddon

A Dutch scientist (says German in link but a name like Joop Houtkooper is Dutch even if he works in Germany) has just announced he believes a re-analysis of Viking (1970's Mars mission by USA) data supports some Martian soil being of biological origin, one which would see Hydrogen Peroxide use with water in the cells of the organism to prevent freezing.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/space/08/23/mars.soil.life.reut/

72

Are you an a-xenist?

by AuldSoul in

jw
friends

"xeno" is a common taxonomical designation for aliens (strangers) including extraterrestrials.. are you someone who lacks belief in intelligent extraterrestrial beings?

do you believe it is possible that such extraterrestrial beings exist?

do you think it is possible or likely that our planet has had interactions with extraterrestrials?.

Abaddon

Terry

Are we to imagine you've said anything different than I said?

Yes "we" are.

You say that if the Earth were closer to or further from the Sun there could be no life.

I am saying our familiar forms of life could exist;

with a significant +/- to climate (c. synomonous with orbital distance as this is the largest driving factor in climate),
that life started with climate different from now (i.e. life could start at another orbital distance, as the same climate could result as a consequence of different atmospheric conditions or the same atmospheric conditions and a different orbit),
and that different life could exist at different orbits.

So yes, "one" can not only imagine but provide proof that I said something different to you.

But as I think you know this I am surprised you even ask.

42

I'm an atheist, so why does some religious music move me so much?

by nicolaou in

jw
friends

i often find myself playing george harrison's 'my sweet lord' while i'm at my pc and i can't help but resonate with his genuine, heartfelt devotion, his appeal to christ or krishna.

the way he opens and pours out his heart to his 'lord' is inspiring.

a while back, i went to a catholic church to see two friends renew their wedding vows.

Abaddon

AH, George Harrison, bless him.

He was enlightened.

As far as I have taken the trouble to inform myself, his religious beliefs were, to me, complete and utter bollocks.

But he got there. Here Comes the Sun is another example. The wonder, the joy, the benigness. Similar feelings to my Sweet Lord but approachable without any requirement of belief in anything other than sunny days are a goodness after the cold of winter, and isn't everything like that?

Music with lyrics can carry an emotional and intellectual impact from the lyrics.

So can the music alone.

Ask anyone with a degree in Music how to make people feel a certain way with music they'll tell you. They can tell me why a certain bit of Jackie's Strength make me want to cry from the music alone.

The desired destination of any reasonable atheist or theist is the same; a good life in peace with one's neighbours in a world where kindness and hope prevail. Is it any surprise the same emotions in music, whether lyrical or musical impact us the same way?

72

Are you an a-xenist?

by AuldSoul in

jw
friends

"xeno" is a common taxonomical designation for aliens (strangers) including extraterrestrials.. are you someone who lacks belief in intelligent extraterrestrial beings?

do you believe it is possible that such extraterrestrial beings exist?

do you think it is possible or likely that our planet has had interactions with extraterrestrials?.

Abaddon

Terry

Sorry old chap, you've fallen straight into anthropic thinking. Or putting the cart before the horse.

The Sci-Fi writer Douglas Adams likened this to a puddle, marvelling at how perfectly it fitted the hole it filled.

There is only one Earth with exactly what Earth has or had at a particular time in a particular way. That makes Earth a UNIQUE (unlike others) incubator. The fact that there are billions of similar (not identical) planets is not enough.

'Like' doesn't mean 'exactly the same'. A planet with similar composition, albedo, gravity and solar irradiance would probably be 'like' the Earth, just like I am 'like' my brother

If the Earth were closer or farther from our Sun there could be no life. Our placement is unique.

With respect, this is probably utter rubbish.

The Earth's climate (and conditions) could vary quite a bit before life-as-we-know-it was not possible; indeed life probably started when it WAS quite different from now. And there are strong reasons to believe life-as-we-speculate-it could form in vastly different conditions subject to its ability to pass on 'genetic' information with modification.

I don't see how anyone can claim that life evolved elsewhere without evidence.
You see, they can't

Yes they can. One can claim anything one likes. Whether it is a reasonable claim, one that is supported by evidence, is a different thing.

Your claim that life on Earth is unique and that there will be nothing like it elsewhere is not supported either way by the evidence (absence for evidence not being evidence for absence is a lot more palatable claim when we are talking about stuff billions of miles away we could not reasonably have evidence of yet), but is not supported by a better grasp of cosmology and biology, and an awareness of the danger of anthropic thinking.

While there is no evidence for life elsewhere, this is to be expected at this time, and cosmology and biology give reasonable certainty to claims life has probably developed elsewhere.

An organism living in the icy upper atmosphere of a gas giant, with ammonia taking the place of water in its biology, would gaze at hard rocky planets close to its sun and dismiss them as possible sites for life due to their searing heat and total absence of liquid ammonia!

To put it simply, just because we are here and can wonder at our existence and note how our environment is perfect for us does not mean other organisms with markedly different chemistry's and requirements for life do not wonder at their existence and note how their environment is perfect for them. Natural selection means we are 'perfectly' adapted for our environments, so of course it seems like they are perfect for us.

And don't make the mistake of thinking ven really smart physicists are good sources of answers for largely biological questions. Well, apart from Feynmann, but he's dead.

Paralipomenon

Overlooked? Mmmm.... or not noticed, like we don't notice ants even though we know they are there?

9

If you think it's "possible" for extraterrestrials...

by FreedomFrog in

jw
friends

why would you feel it's not probable for spirits or ghosts?.

my question came when i read this thread http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/140402/1.ashx.

i was reading the thread from auldsoul and i couldn't help but wonder this question.

Abaddon

Well, maybe it is because we know physical organisms exist and that some are intelligent.

Given our understanding of the Universe and biology, we can say that we are unlikely to be the only planet with life in the Univese and that it is also unlikely to be no other intelligent life in the Universe.

Spirits, ghosts etc have not been proved in the same way physical organisms can be proven to exist. Not once, not ever.

Therefore it is quite reasonable to scoff at the idea of ghosts as wild and unproven speculation and speculate to some extent reasonably about intelligent life on other planets.

21

Islamic Sharia law, Gods law or just barbaric law

by barry in

jw
friends

i beleive with muslims voicing their opinions so openly its time for the average joe out there to be informed about sharia law.

the law they beleive has come from allah and is the most superiour law on the face of the earth today.this issue.

s. the link is http://www.americanthinker.com/2005/08/top_ten_reasons_why_sharia_is.html.

Abaddon

Barry

Wouldn't it be nice if we could have a discussion about the unspeakable without lowering ourselves to the same level?

I hope Merry posts here shes got some explaining to do, maybe she willl place a fatwa on me.

Yeah, nice one Barry, and I suppose someone saying you will take out a contract on anyone who disagrees with you makes their argument a good one?

So, let's see what we are going on about;

Traditional Islam has some horrible laws and can behave in a beastly manner towards people. Oh, hang on, I meant to say "Christianity'.

Well, no, I didn't, I'm just making an obvious point.

All the distaste and disgust about Islamic Law can be applied to the Bible for exactly the same reasons, although I don't remember Sharia Law specifying death as a punishment for not wearing a tasseled fringe...

Now, most Bible followers today would get stoned before they stoned someone.

But three or four generations ago Christian nations treated women like chattel, children as having no rights of their own, and viewed other religions as primitive savagery, and people of non-European races as inferior. Hell, the UK went to war with China to force China to allow the import of Opium!! A few more generations further back and we kept slaves and disemboweled or burnt people as punishments.

Many parts of the Islamic world are at a stage of social development our part of the world was back in the generations I'm talking about.

Mobile phones and cars and Nike do not change a culture over night.

Do you imagine a Victorian gentleman with slaves, a wife he could legally beat, and the habit of patronising a child brothel thought that he was evil and uncivilised? Of course not! He was a god-fearing respectable member of society!

Do you think a quick chat, and a Nokia and a Mercedes would convince him that slavery was wrong, that women should own their own property and vote, and that children should be protected?

No, of course not, his cultural prejudices would run far deeper than that.

And so it is today in some parts of the Islamic world; it's a few generations behind ours in its sociological development. Unlike the Christian world, no credible secularist movement has reached ascendancy - a few countries like Turkey and Tunisia are trying, and others lag far behind.

Just as it was in Victorian times, some people in the Islamic world do not subscribe to the more brutal beliefs and punishments their societies have. Just as in the Christian world they work from within to overcome it.

And not one word of the Bible has changed whilst the Christian world became secular. And not one word of the Qu'ran shall change when the Islamic world becomes secular.

Because it isn't about religion, it is all about culture; as volubly shown by seeing how Christianity is expressed differently by different cultures and how Islam also is expressed differently by different cultures - both today and over time.

You can view Islam as different in nature if you want, but I would be interested in seeing you dismiss the points of similarity with our own society in the past and the likely future trends for Islam our own society has already experienced.

72

Are you an a-xenist?

by AuldSoul in

jw
friends

"xeno" is a common taxonomical designation for aliens (strangers) including extraterrestrials.. are you someone who lacks belief in intelligent extraterrestrial beings?

do you believe it is possible that such extraterrestrial beings exist?

do you think it is possible or likely that our planet has had interactions with extraterrestrials?.

Abaddon

AuldSoul

Are you someone who lacks belief in intelligent extraterrestrial beings?

Well, if by belief you mean an assured expectation, yes, I lack an assured expectation. I merely consider it quite probable.

Do you believe it is possible that such extraterrestrial beings exist? Likely?

Possible, yes. Likely; most reasonable statistical analyses indicate it is likely, but much of the calculation is based upon assumptions we can not validate yet, so the statistical analyses are not very robust.

Do you think it is possible or likely that our planet has had interactions with extraterrestrials?

There is no evidence for this. If we break down 'interaction with our planet' into different classes of interaction I can answer that question meaningfully;

If there ARE intelligent aliens;

It is likely our planet is known to them, the likelihood falling with the distance between their world/worlds/starships and ours, and raising with the technological sophistication and age of their civilisation. Example; any radio-age + civilisation within 50-100 light years is likely to know of our existence. A vastly ancient and sophisticated civilisation with non-FTL transport systems based on the opposite side of the galaxy is unlikely to know of our existence.

As to visits to our planet, this breaks down into two basic scenarios;

FTL possible
FTL not possible.

Each scenario further divides into 'Low cost of interstellar transport' and 'high cost'.

By high cost I mean major fractions of GDP. By low cost I mean private ventures are possible.

FTL possible + low cost = high probability

Non-FTL + high cost = low probability

... with a spectrum of various probabilities between the scenarios.

The basic probability above would be adjusted according to the distance from the civilisation and the age of the civilisation.

Example; if there are aliens on Alpha Centaruri's planets (assume there are suitable planets in that system), cost of interstellar transport is low and FTL exists, then alien sightings are probably the result of drunk alien teenagers from Alpha having a laugh winding up silly monkeys. If cost is high, there is no FTL, and the nearest civilisation to us is around Deneb, then it is unlikely we have been visited.

As so much of the above is speculation and as there is no evidence we have been visited, it would seem safer to assume 'no'.

Assuming 'yes' in the absence of hard evidence requires a fervent belief in Star Trek like civilisations with low cost of FTL transport, and a assumption there would be a sound business case or philosophical inclination to add will to ability. It seems to assume we are extraordinary, whereas if there is intelligent alien life, we are probably barely worth knowing if at all.

Do you think it is possible or likely that primitive peoples encountered Gods and/or Goddesses possessed of incomprehensible capabilities?

As I could be a god to a stone-age civilisation who had no contact with other humans, them thinking they had encountered gods or goddesses seem to be irrelevant. An idiot with a torch could be god.

Could our special advancement have been aided along by benefactors of an extra-earthly origin?

Special advancement? Please prove 'special advancement', starting with a definition of what it is.

I am very wary of Gene Roddenberryesque human elitistism that assumes we are special (us showing Vulcans how to make a multi-species intergalactic Empire, humans being just so damn clever and foxy compared to Klingons and Romulans even if they have older civilisations).

It is just a tarted-up form of Eugenics (beloved of another Sci-Fi writer) where 'the African' is replaced by 'the Alien'.

Each tribe tends to assume they are somehow superior to the others near them (often the tribal name is 'the people' in their native tongue, as if the other tribes aren't quite people).

Each nation tends to assume they are somehow superior to others.

We should be growing out of this, not now believing that somehow humans are special compared to other intelligent species elsewhere (or even unintelligent ones on this planet).

Of course, you might have a reason why you consider humans have 'Special advancement'. I'd be interested to know what it is.

111

I REALLY DON'T CARE...............................

by Warlock in

i believe in god, but i also realize he may not exist.. if you don't believe in god, i really don't care, i'm just curious.. i don't have this need to start threads like "why you must believe in god", or other such nonsense, but some of you still have this "control" issue that you thought you left in the org.

it seems like you must still try to control what others think.

"think like me, or you are an idiot.

Abaddon

Warlock

How can my own death NOT be proof, TO ME, whether God exists or not?

Forget it Warlock, it obviously escapes you. At least you're smart enough to avoid embarrassing yourself anymore by actually responding properly. You rather obviously like dishing it out, but don't like getting it back. Poor diddums.

ninja

Well, you know what they say about bullies...

dobbie

If anyone actually reads what I say across various threads, it's fairly clear I don't mind people disagreeing with me. It is their right, just as it is my right to disagree with them.

Thus is after all a discussion board, not an agreement board; there's plenty of places people can go to have their personal belief system unquestioningly validated. I just wonder why some people want to make this forum a place where their personal belief system can be unquestioningly validated.

I am quite happy for people to believe in what I consider to be nonsense. I won't lie to them or pander to them and make out otherwise. I do not think someone's (to me) silly beliefs should be treated any differently just because they claim they are a 'religious' belief.

What is very obvious is a certain mindset of poster that expects beliefs to be pandered to even in the absence of hard evidence. They expect, despite a total inability to provide differentiation, to have beliefs about god treated differently from beliefs about fairies. And they deeply resent anyone questioning their illogicity.

Even when someone tries to point out that it is the religious nut-jobs with their literalistic, elitist drivel who really attract the harsh criticism of 'atheists', not the modern religious believer, they still try and make out they are being oppressed. It's like a Monty Python sketch;

Believer; "I believe you oppress my beliefs"
Nonbeliever; "No I don't"
Believer; Oh! Come and see the oppression inherent in secularism! Help! Help! I'm being oppressed!

And to my vast and continuing amusement these are the very same people who fling accusations about religious mentalities.