Posts by Abaddon

42

Homosexuality and Social Policy

by Perry in

jw
friends

post jw life requires us to think as members of the larger society as we look at issues from the perspective of a member of a participatory government.

unlike jw life, we get to have a say in what kind of life we experience for ourselves and our children.

i will present a series of issues that require our judgment, that we as former jehovahs witnesses were prevented in having a say in and may not have ever given much thought to.

Abaddon

Back at home...

Perry; "Thus creating any differentiation between heterosexual and homosexual relationships is a flagrant denial of equality.
" = a)

Frenchy... this also caught my eye in your post;

I do not consider homosexuality normal behavior. I do not view it as a disease or necessarily a perversion (although it certainly can be, in my opinion) but rather an aberration. Some might take offense at that last word but please be assured that I do not use it in a demeaning manner. The primary function of sex is for reproduction. Homosexuality is a dead end there. For those who would argue that this type of behavior is normal I would submit to them that if all of society practiced it, humanity would end in one generation. It is NECESSARY for the survival of the species that heterosexual relationships exist. Homosexual relationships are NOT necessary for the survival of the species. They mimic what the bulk of mankind practice. Does that make homosexuals bad people? Certainly not.

I think that essentially speaking the term 'normal' should not be used. It's too emotive and semantically slippary unless you spend some time working out what you mean by it, and then it smacks of subjectivity.

I prefer 'natural'. Homosexuality is completely natural, and without being rude anyone contesting this had better do some research, as it's all over the place in nature, even down to lasting same-sex pair bonds that STILL raise offspring.

This, and my comments earlier about sexual oriontation and desire to procreate being different things, kind of march hand in hand, as nature, as in terns, benobos and macaques, amongst others I think, proves my assertion, let alone any gay couples who want children.

Having discarded 'normal' and selected 'natural', yes, one does have to admit that homosexuality seems pretty useless, and something that wouldn't survive if it is indeed largely genetic, from a evoultionary biological point of view I hasten to add.

But ONLY if you just look at the first level of the onion. If you just think 'if everyone were gay we'd die out', you are missing the lesson nature had for us, that homosexuality and procreation are two different things.

If you accept that, then the fact we have had, do have and will have homosexuals is completely understandable.

You say that homosexuality can be a perversion... I'm not sure what you mean... if you mean any behaviour, be it heterosexual or homosexual can be a perversion, fine, but I'd disagree that homosexuality is intrinsically more likely to be 'perverted' than heterosexuality. I am really rather hetero, but a massive pervert, for example, but then, pervert is also an issue of semantics, isn't it?

All the best

41

Get Out More / Questionaire.

by Englishman in

jw
friends

is it true that americans are the least travelled people in the world?

if that is the case, its hardly surprising when you read all the dire warnings contained inside a us passport.

also, i am told that americans regard the rest of the world as a very dangerous place to be.

Abaddon

I'm game...

England (Home)
Wales
Scotland
Eire
Italy (conceived in Naples, but I've been since)
France
Spain - mainland
Spain - Mallorca
Switzerland
Litchenstein
Monaco
Austria
West Germany (as was)
Belguim
The Netherlands
Luxembourg
The United States of America
-New Hampshire
-New York
-Coneticut (sp?)
-Rhode Island
-Washington (DC)
-Pennsylvania
-New Jersey
-West Virginia
(and any other States you drive through between Washington, DC, and Concorde, NH)
-Washington State
-Illinois
-Kansas
-Oklahoma
-Texas
-New Mexico
-Arizona
-Colorado
-Utah (well, Four Corners)
-California
-North Carolina
-South Carolina

Tunisia
Taiwan

42

Homosexuality and Social Policy

by Perry in

jw
friends

post jw life requires us to think as members of the larger society as we look at issues from the perspective of a member of a participatory government.

unlike jw life, we get to have a say in what kind of life we experience for ourselves and our children.

i will present a series of issues that require our judgment, that we as former jehovahs witnesses were prevented in having a say in and may not have ever given much thought to.

Abaddon

good comment joel; you can't legislate status. Oh, I must have missed the lecture you went too...

Frenchy - first of all, I'm not having a go at you, I'm addressing your post, and you know I'm excitable, but mostly harmless... I realise you are discussing the thread, and you're perfectly entitled to your opinion.

I'm not arguing that genetic traits or fetal development is the ONLY influence on a person's sexuality.

But the theories about fetal development I mentioned are so close to describing what people are like they are pretty convincing.

The theory (backed up by structural differences in brain structure (from memory again)) states there are two phases of brain development that can be pertinant to sexual identity.

In one the areas of the brain that determine sexual attraction are formed. If the hormone level is wrong, then a developing boy will get a brain that is more likely to make him like other boys, and a developing girl would be more likely to be attracted to women.

In the second areas more linked to behaviour are formed. Again, if the hormonal levels are wrong, a boy will be more likely to behave in a feminine way, and a girl will be more likely to behave in a masculine way.

Note, I say MORE likely! Probably in the region of HALF our sexuality is determined by environment, if not more.

But this theory explains your straight acting gay guys, your effeminate gay guys, your straight acting lesbians, your butch lesbians, your straight straight acting people, your camp straight guys and your tom-boys, as the hormonal imbalance is not neccesarily present during BOTH phases, and you can have non-normal attractive centres and normal behavioural centres, or any of the possible combinations.

To me, this mirrors life. Doesn't mean it's true, but I definately don;t agree with your statement;

I don’t believe that any intelligent person today would seriously argue that some males are born with very effeminate qualities and that some females are born with very masculine qualities, emotional, mental, and physical.

... as I don't think it's true, from my experience of meeting people and listening to their stories.

Now, I would say more, but I'm leaving work and don't have the time.

Apologies if I misunderstood your point.

6

How Much Head on A Proper Pint?

by Valis in

jw
friends

5% head and 95% beer is now the established legal amount of head on a beer in britain.

head or no head?

what do all of our brit apostates think?

Abaddon

Head? Yes please! Why WOULDN'T I want head

*reads thread properly*

Oh...

Well, I know a fair bit about head, having worked in a bar, and tried to give customers the head that they wanted.

I think a little head is fine... a finger width, maybe a tad more with Guiness or other stouts or 'cream ales'.

Here in Holland they serve beer in TINY glasses, and you get LOADS of head. Seriously, it's cheap, but it had bloody-well better be as you get a half-pint glass half-full of beer with suds up to the brim.

38

What - if any - Religon are you now practicing?

by lydia in

jw
friends

i know this seems like a dumb subject.. but i often wonder if many of us still believe and feel the need to worship - and not the borg either .

so here is a poll.... what religious orginization - if any - are you affiliated ( this does not mean you had to join it)?.

or - do you feel that everything is wrong due to the borg..and will you ever consider going to an organized religon again??.

Abaddon

SYN; 'World Mind'? You've been reading up on obscure French Theologians, or reading Julian May novels, haven't you.

Very interesting concept.

42

Homosexuality and Social Policy

by Perry in

jw
friends

post jw life requires us to think as members of the larger society as we look at issues from the perspective of a member of a participatory government.

unlike jw life, we get to have a say in what kind of life we experience for ourselves and our children.

i will present a series of issues that require our judgment, that we as former jehovahs witnesses were prevented in having a say in and may not have ever given much thought to.

Abaddon

I'm sure this discussion has been had before... I remember quoting the same stats! But it's always fun to have again... homosexuality is, like gun control, one of the boomerang topics in DB's like this.

First of all the study. It's important to clarify (unless my memory is playing tricks on me - I'm doing this from memory) that this study concerned twins who were raised SEPERATELY.

This is very important, as without this information, the results can be given a different interpretation.

Essentially, siblings, raised seperately, will be gay 11% of the time if their sibling is gay.

A fraternal twins raised seperately from their twin will be gay 22% of the time if their twin is gay.

An identical twin will be gay 52% of the time if their seperately raised identical twin is gay.

As these stats are based on being raised seperately, there is NO environmental link in the figures; the kids grew up in different houses and lead different lives. The only cause for the stats IS genetic influence.

Obviously, the stats also imply that socialisation is also important, as with an identical set of genes there's still only a 50% chance of being gay.

But they indicate that it's fairly likely that gayness is to a large extent geneticly determined, even if socialisation plays an equal part.

However, it's unlikely that socialisation plays the whole of the other 48% part. There are two specific periods during featl development where an excess or deficit of hormones in the fetal blood supply can result in parts of the brain of the fetus developing in a more male or female manner than the gender of the fetus would indicate.

So, it would seem there is strong scientific evidence to support that while some gay people may 'decide' to be gay, most gay people ARE gay, along with the poor troubled souls who ARE gay, and have to fight their natural inclinations as they have been taught that it's bad.

On this basis I think that gay couples should have the same rights as heterosexual couples.

In fact, I cannot think of one logical arguement why they are not accorded these rights. Homosexuality is demonstrably part of natural variation.

This might be counter-intuative at first glance; how can a trait that seemingly would NOT lead to the passing of genes be kept in the gene pool?

Because sexyuality and desire to procreate are DIFFERENT things. You can be as gay as a pink tent with its flaps open and still want kids.

Excuses as to why gays shouldn;t be alowed to have equal relationship rights to heterosexuals include the oft cited 'gays don't have kids, so it's not a proper marriage', which is irrelevent and innacurate.

Some married couples don't have kids; yet they have the same rights as those that do.

Also, as mentioned above, being gay has NOTHING to do with not having children. Gay people have been having children for as long as there have been gay people, which would seem to pre-date the dawn of humanity as our closest relatives have been observed to form same-sex sexual bonds, and this behaviour is observed outside of the Primate family too.

Nowadays social conditions are such that gay people don't have to be in fake relationship with a heterosexual to have kids, or be in deep denial over their sexuality, act like a hetero all their ;life, and have kids, or have a marriage of convenience with a homosexual of the opposite sex and maybe have kids.

Adam and Steve can push their stroller through the park with their little bundle of joy in it (given a surrogate mother), and, with a little help from a turkey baster and a close friend or anonymous donor, Lucy and Dru can do the same.

Thus creating any differentiation between heterosexual and homosexual relationships is a flagrant denial of equality.

20

What should I do??? Help!!

by Delite2k in

i'm a non-jw dating a jw male ( for three months now) and he treats me like a woman should be treated.

he's the best i've ever been with...ya know what i mean?

!......we have sex when and where we can (receintly at the job

Abaddon

Delite2k; Well, your boyfriend is leading a double life, if he is an active Witness. Basically, he is going against scriptual council by even DATING you, and would not be allowed any priveliges or positions of responsibility within the Congregation. As as regards the sex, if this were found out he would probably be disfellowshipped, which would mean no WItnesses would talk to him, apart from MAYBE his family.

Now, get me right here; I don't think you or he are doing anything wrong by being together and doing what you do - I'm just telling you what the attitudes of other Witnesses would be (I used to be a Witness).

Now, what you have to figure out is;

1/ Whether he believes it all and is just using you until a nice, acceptable JW girl comes along.

2/ Whether he is conflicted; he's tried to believe, but can't, tried to live his life their way, but can't, and had found happiness with you, but has yet to break away from the JW's as he is afraid of losing contact with all his friends there. If he's conflicted, he probably still believes it IS 'The Truth', and that the only reason he can't 'do it right' is he's a bad person.

3/ Whether he is on his way out already, as he doesn't believ it's 'The Truth' anymore, and is just living life his way until he gets caught.

If it's 1 then you are going to get hurt. If it's 2, then you're gonna have some hard times ahead. If it's 3, it's STILL going to be difficult.

The JW's are a cult; they stop you being able to examine other opinions, as any disagreement is seen as 'apostacy', and they kick you out. It's not like his mom took him to Church a few times a year when he was a kid; this stuff is GROUND in to him.

Now, if you love him, and he's not using you, there's some hope, but you have to find out how he regards you, and how deeply he still believes.

In doing this, if you attack the JW's in anyway, and he still believes it is 'The Truth', he will regard YOU as doing something wrong. You have a difficyult task ahead of you.

Good luck.

38

What - if any - Religon are you now practicing?

by lydia in

jw
friends

i know this seems like a dumb subject.. but i often wonder if many of us still believe and feel the need to worship - and not the borg either .

so here is a poll.... what religious orginization - if any - are you affiliated ( this does not mean you had to join it)?.

or - do you feel that everything is wrong due to the borg..and will you ever consider going to an organized religon again??.

Abaddon

I tried practising relgion, but I never got good enough at it to keep it up.

Seriously... ?

I have a profound and unshakable belief in humans sorting stuff out eventually, despite all evidence at times to the contrary, and a deep appreciation for the beauty of what I sincerely believe to be a godless Universe.

I say this, as all to often the assumption is that if you don't practice a religion you 'don't believe in things', or have no 'spirituality'. I don't think that's true; just because I don;t see god behind a beautiful sunset doesn't mean my emotional and intellectual appreciation of this is one iota less intense.

29

cheer me up

by flower in

jw
friends

i know its shamelessly and selfish to post but i'm really depressed.

someone pls try to cheer me up?

tell me a joke or something?

Abaddon

*sings*

Oh she may be weary... Those young girls they do get weary...
...Wearing that same old shaggy dress (shaggy dress) oh oh oh oh
But when she gets weary...

You try a little tenderness...

I know she's waiting... Just anticipating...
... The thing that you'll never (never) never (never) possess
No no no but while she's there waiting...

Try just a little bit of tenderness

*spoken* That's all you got to do...

*sings*

Now it's not just...s... s... s... sentimental no no no no...
But she has her griefs and cares (yes she does)
But the soft words...they, I say they, are spoke so gentle...
yeah yeah yeah... And it makes it easier (EASIER) to bear
Oh she won't regret it, no no oh no... Them young girls they don't forget it

Love is their whole (whole) whole (whole) happiness-ess-ess-yes
yeah yeah yeah... *getting louder* But it's all so easy!
all you got to do is try...

Try a little tenderness! *getting on down now*

You've got to;
Hold her
Squeeze her
Never leave her
Now get to her
... got to got to got to try a little tenderness...

You've got to hold her
Don't squeeze her
Never leave her
You've got to uh got to uh got to uh me na ah na na na na ya got to try...

... try a little tenderness!

Oh can you feel the love inside!

You've got to hold her
Don't squeeze her
Never leave her
You've got to uh got to uh got to uh me na ah na na na na ya got to try...

... try a little tenderness!

122

How old were you when you lost your virginity...

by butalbee in

how old were you when you lost your virginity and was it all that you thought it would be?????.

i was 19, and my first time was a complete let down.

i envisioned that gothic romance motif, all about romance and love, i didn't know what i was doing, didn't know sex was like that.

Abaddon

naeblis, you're virgin on the ridiculous...

Me? 22, wedding night; my x-wife was not a virgin. It was great, I mean, I was having SEX.

I only discovered later that making love, having sex and fucking are three seperate things...