Hi John
Is this a purely hypothetical question?
As a Mormon whos been through periods of variable activity, I feel somewhat able to comment here, and especially with having been a JW previously I can comment on the difference between my experiences as a JW and Mormon.
With regard to the practice of polygamy, I never had a problem with it as such. Niether do I worry about Joseph Smith marrying girls who were only 14, or was it 15? Anyway, didn't Josiah (one of the few good Israelite kings)have two children by the time he was fifteen? Certain rights and wrongs aren't really absolute. I expect somebody will disagree with that.
Anyway, the aspect that I had difficulty with was the apparent duplicity. I've always found though that other Mormons were very relaxed on the whole about my personal doubts and more especially that could be said of church leaders. It generally goes down ok to raise quite controversial questions in discussions at church and I've said some quite challenging things on occasion. On one occasion I used a talk to share some of my doubts which possibly upset some people, but there was no equivalent of a judicial Committee or even the hint of such a thing. Nobody ever said anything to me that could be taken other than as intended in a spirit of concern. As for shunning, I have never heard of or seen such a thing. I think I would have to be very obnoxious to keep mormon friends away.
With regard to being barred from the temple, it is true that the temple is only open to those who are faithful members, but I have no idea why anybody would want to go there if they weren't, so I never viewed that as a problem. A very few members do get excommunicated, but that does not result in JW style shunning. They are simply no longer members of the church and are not supposed to take sacrament, but people wouldn't necessarily even know if I was excommunicated if I didn't choose to tell them.
In contrast, having been a JW with doubts, I felt like I was very much threatened to keep my mouth shut, and when I finally DA'd myself I very much regretted never having the opportunity to talk to friends about why I was leaving.
So, in my opinion, there is very little in common for Mormons and JWs who doubt their religion. The best approach for a Mormon with such questions is to seek out those well informed about the issues that generally cause concern. I'd be happy to help and whether they decided to stay with the church or move on would be entirely up to them.
pascaljon
JoinedPosts by pascaljon
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What would you say to a Mormon dealing with this?
by John Corrill inive been reading up on the latter-day saint (mormon) doctrine of polygamy.
information on the church website (http://www.lds.org) says:
"in this dispensation, the lord commanded some of the early saints to practice plural marriage.
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pascaljon
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Death and Resurrection
by pascaljon ini thought it would be interesting to raise a question that was brought up by mike purbrick (anybody know him) at the mts (england, 1992).
the question relates to whether a resurrected peson is really the same person if they are only genetically identical and somehow impregnated with the memories of the deceased.
in short, if my spirit is not personal to me, and no part of me survives to the resurrected being then can it really be me, or is it just a copy?
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pascaljon
So, does this mean we are all in agreement here?
With regard to often quoted Bible verses in Ecclesiastes, would you agree that Solomon is simply expressing a human perspective on mortality? Nevertheless, the old testament doesn't give much information on the life to come. Presumably this was intentional, but why?
Further, if the spirit survives death, can it be destroyed? Or does an immortal spirit necessitate the existence of some kind of hell, presuming there is not a universal salvation? If a spirit is created though, presumably sometime before birth, why can it not be destroyed? Also, why is the resurrection important ( meaning the reuniting of body and spirit) if the spirit is happily existing after death without the body?
I would love to state my opinion on these subjects, but to be honest I only have questions and no real opinion. My thoughts turned to John's words to the effect that it has not yet been shown what we shall be, but we know that when he (Christ) appears, we shall be like him and ... then I can't remember what it says. Also, when Job says something like... If an able bodied man dies, can he live again? All the days of my confinement I shall wait. You shall call and I shall answer you... does this reflect an acknowledgement that his knowledge was limmited? I think I'm still learning to admit I don't know many things. The JW insistence on having an answer for everything (even if it was obviously wrong) really annoyed me but it also rubbed off. I no longer think the judgement will depend on ability in doctrinal exposition.
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Death and Resurrection
by pascaljon ini thought it would be interesting to raise a question that was brought up by mike purbrick (anybody know him) at the mts (england, 1992).
the question relates to whether a resurrected peson is really the same person if they are only genetically identical and somehow impregnated with the memories of the deceased.
in short, if my spirit is not personal to me, and no part of me survives to the resurrected being then can it really be me, or is it just a copy?
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pascaljon
I thought it would be interesting to raise a question that was brought up by Mike Purbrick (anybody know him) at the MTS (England, 1992). The question relates to whether a resurrected peson is really the same person if they are only genetically identical and somehow impregnated with the memories of the deceased. In short, if my spirit is not personal to me, and no part of me survives to the resurrected being then can it really be me, or is it just a copy?
It is apparent that according to JW thinking, God could resurrect more than one of me. Each would be me genetically. Each could be invested with my memories, but could both be me? Indeed could either be me if the spirit does not survive death?
Mike's comment was that it was best not to think about such things, but I hope somebody here will have an opinion. -
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Any old friends aboard from the MTS?
by pascaljon ini've been lurking on the fringes of this site for a week or two and was just wondering whether there is anybody else here that i knew from the ministerial training school.
i was second to apostasise from my class (that being the fifth in britain, 1992) and thought it would be good to know if anybody else was here.
also, while i'm at it, if there's anybody with a connection to norwich thorpe congregation or with information on sarah brett it would be good to hear from you too.
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pascaljon
Scotsman
I stopped by to read your biography. Now I get it. How did you manage to just drop out without getting DF'd or DA'd. By the way, even with going through the MTS I didn't realise that the very act of going to another church was sufficient to disassociate myself. I was expecting the whole judicial committee thing and got nothing. What an anticlimax. So, do you still see your JW relatives? Feel free to say hi to John for me.
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Any old friends aboard from the MTS?
by pascaljon ini've been lurking on the fringes of this site for a week or two and was just wondering whether there is anybody else here that i knew from the ministerial training school.
i was second to apostasise from my class (that being the fifth in britain, 1992) and thought it would be good to know if anybody else was here.
also, while i'm at it, if there's anybody with a connection to norwich thorpe congregation or with information on sarah brett it would be good to hear from you too.
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pascaljon
The name Ian Shanks rings a bell, but he wasn't in our class. From your "Mormon or Gay" reference, am I to assume he decided he was the latter? I expect that went down well.
One of my Mormon friends was given a tour of the Hayes Bridge assembly hall, and spotted me on the MTS photograph. Quite innocently (I'd only met him once at that time) he enquired who I was as he thought I looked familiar. He quickly realised he'd stuck his finger on a sore spot. Its nice being famous, but such a pitty that the fame is limitted to people who don't talk to me for the most part.
John Boardley ( think I spelled that right) was first from my class to turn apostate. Are you still out there John?
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Any old friends aboard from the MTS?
by pascaljon ini've been lurking on the fringes of this site for a week or two and was just wondering whether there is anybody else here that i knew from the ministerial training school.
i was second to apostasise from my class (that being the fifth in britain, 1992) and thought it would be good to know if anybody else was here.
also, while i'm at it, if there's anybody with a connection to norwich thorpe congregation or with information on sarah brett it would be good to hear from you too.
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pascaljon
This is great! Good to hear from you Qwerty, but who are you? From your info... "Not brought up a JW, was indoctrinated at the age of 20yrs old! In for 17years (started to see is was not the truth 3 years ago). Was a Ministerial servant, Pioneered for 5-6 years, almost an Elder the way things were going. Finally had to put the breaks on (Crisis of conscience, I think you call it! LOL) stopped going to meetings months and months ago." ... I have absolutely no idea who you are. I should be able to figure out who I'm talking to, but nobody I can think of seems to fit the profile. Or could this be Mike? So, do you still keep in touch with anybody? I still live at the same house - you're welcome to call round if you remember where that is. I never see any JWs in our area. I figured they all moved away. Perhaps they made my whole street a "do not call" to keep out of my way. I've spoken with Tracey and Lisa quite recently but apart from them, I'm not spoken with anybody from the congregation in about five years.
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Any old friends aboard from the MTS?
by pascaljon ini've been lurking on the fringes of this site for a week or two and was just wondering whether there is anybody else here that i knew from the ministerial training school.
i was second to apostasise from my class (that being the fifth in britain, 1992) and thought it would be good to know if anybody else was here.
also, while i'm at it, if there's anybody with a connection to norwich thorpe congregation or with information on sarah brett it would be good to hear from you too.
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pascaljon
Hey Duncan I knew "Bro. Laskey" very well. Somebody once told me that the American accent was very fashionable amongst JWs in the 60s and John just couldn't let it go when it went out of fashion. John and Joyce regularly had us pioneers over for dinner. I always coveted his stuffed fox that was curled up in the corner of the livingroom. I've no idea what he's up to now. I left Norwich in 1992, and disassociated myself in 1996. John once told me though that if the end had not come by the year 2000, then JWs would cease to exist. Well, the JWs survived 2000, but I don't know whether John did. But Scotsman, am I really infamous? If anybody is after a quick exit from the JWs then I can recommend getting baptised in another church. Its true, I'd done a bit of groundwork beforehand, but I went on holiday to Croydon and met two Mormon missionaries, got baptised a week later and then went home to Sheffield. The JW elders called by two days later to pick up the congregation accounts and that was the last I ever saw of them. That is except for Pete "that fox" who came and asked if he could buy my window cleaning round. Happy memories. Were you at John and Micheles wedding by any chance? I have never drunk as much as I did that weekend. Actually most of the drinking was done the day after the wedding. We went to Edinburgh for the day and did nothing but drink, except for a short interval in the cinema. I couldn't stop shaking the next day. Fortunately I wasn't the one driving us home on the motorway. John was a great companion when we moved to Sheffield. My main memories of the MTS weren't so much regarding learning anything, but eating huge amounts of food (putting on over a stone in 8 weeks) and laughing so hard at dinner times that we would cry. I'm surprised that they granted our request to have an assignment together. John had a different approach to being a JW though. He had inherited the faith and believed it as a whole but had no qualms about disbelieving certain points he didn't like. When the "knowledge" book came out I think he was already expecting them to have dropped the 1914 generation clause. He already had a good pension scheme organised. In contrast, I swallowed the whole package as the word of God, and expected Armageddon any day, but it made it easier to leave when I realised it was bunk.
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Any old friends aboard from the MTS?
by pascaljon ini've been lurking on the fringes of this site for a week or two and was just wondering whether there is anybody else here that i knew from the ministerial training school.
i was second to apostasise from my class (that being the fifth in britain, 1992) and thought it would be good to know if anybody else was here.
also, while i'm at it, if there's anybody with a connection to norwich thorpe congregation or with information on sarah brett it would be good to hear from you too.
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pascaljon
I've been lurking on the fringes of this site for a week or two and was just wondering whether there is anybody else here that I knew from the ministerial training school. I was second to apostasise from my class (that being the fifth in Britain, 1992) and thought it would be good to know if anybody else was here.
Also, while I'm at it, if there's anybody with a connection to Norwich Thorpe congregation or with information on Sarah Brett it would be good to hear from you too.
Thanks.
Jon. -
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Can anybody point me in the direction of a district convention?
by pascaljon ini know some of you may find this strange, but i really want to go along to a district convention this year.
its been eight years since i last went and i was wondering how things would look from a mature apostate perspective.
a convention near to sheffield england would be good, but perhaps not too near so i can avoid being trailed by security.
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pascaljon
I know some of you may find this strange, but I really want to go along to a district convention this year. Its been eight years since I last went and I was wondering how things would look from a mature apostate perspective. A convention near to Sheffield England would be good, but perhaps not too near so I can avoid being trailed by security. Is anybody out there protesting at this years conventions? Wouldn't it be novel to actually be able to stop and talk with the protestors.
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Mormons Last Night
by NeonMadman ini mentioned last week in another thread that some mormons were to be coming by.
the way all this came about was that, in late april, my wife and i went to las vegas for a few days.
she was assigned by her company to attend a conference there, and, since i had never been more than a few miles west of the mississippi river, decided to tag along to see the sights.
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pascaljon
In my experience, you probably will see your Mormon missionaries again. They only once failed to show up as arranged in all the time they called on me, and then they claimed to have got delayed by a combination of a puncture and no spare tyre. It struck me that as a JW I was always scribbling peoples addresses on bits of paper and promising to call back, then loosing the paper or just forgetting until it was too embarrasing to go back. In contrast, the missionaries seemed much more efficient. The reason for that is perhaps due to the fact that they phone in their "field service report" at the end of every day rather than every month. Don't expect them to rethink their ideas though. I thought I'd give them something to think about, but ended up getting baptised myself. I guess I'm just prone to religious pursuasion. I enjoyed the Mormon church though, and if you've got any questions for somebody "on the inside" (actually on the outside now) then let me know. The Quetzalcoatl subject is interesting. Quetzalcoatl was both a man, a priest and a god. He was called the morning star, I believe, and left ascending into the sky to the east, having promised to return. He was apparently white which supposedly contributed to Europeans (was it Cortez?) being welcomed as gods when they arrived from the East in America. Also, according to legend he was born of a virgin. All this can be found in non Mormon sources. He's not pushed much within the church itself as many people believe the whole story originated after the Spanish arrived. I only ever heard mention of him within the Mormon church when talking to missionaries. Well, I hope you enjoy their visits. People do find much of what they believe strange, but then again, you may find, like me that it helps you become more critical of your own beliefs, which has to be a good thing.