Mormons Last Night

by NeonMadman 13 Replies latest jw friends

  • NeonMadman
    NeonMadman

    I mentioned last week in another thread that some Mormons were to be coming by. The way all this came about was that, in late April, my wife and I went to Las Vegas for a few days. She was assigned by her company to attend a conference there, and, since I had never been more than a few miles west of the Mississippi River, decided to tag along to see the sights.

    Anyway, she was free for one full day while we were there, and I rented a car, and we drove up I-15 through a corner of Arizona, then took a detour through the mountains and ended up in St. George's, Utah. I was amazed at the number of Mormon churches there. We'd drive by a Mormon church, see a steeple a few more blocks down the road, and, lo and behold, another Mormon church! As we were heading down the road, my wife spotted a sign that said "Temple," with an arrow pointing the way. The temptation was too much to resist for a counter-cult type like me. I followed the arrow, and drove up in front of a Mormon temple. So I stopped the car, and we walked into the Visitor Center, where we had the staff busily trying to convert us for the next hour or so. They told us all about the history of the temple and how it was built, which was pretty interesting. They also showed us a movie about Joseph Smith's first vision. I knew all about that, but I was playing dumb. They told us how great the church was, and if only we were members, we could go into the Temple and engage in the ceremonies and be married eternally etc. etc. Anyway, they said they thought I'd really enjoy these free videos they offer, and would I like to give them my name and address so they could get them to me? Hence, the visit from the missionaries.

    Well, as promised, the missionaries stopped by last night. It was a rather pleasant visit, lasting just over an hour. During that time, I basically held their feet to the fire as far as producing any evidence for the Book of Mormon being scripture or Joseph Smith being a true prophet. They tried offer me the usual counsel, which goes something like, "pray about it and God will give you a feeling that it's true." One of them actually described the feeling as "sort of a warm fuzzy." I told them that feelings can be deceiving, and that I once had a strong feeling that JW's had the truth - but I was wrong. I also pointed out several scriptures about testing teachings by scripture ("prove all things," "test the spirits," the Bereans, etc.). To my surprise, one of the missionaries agreed with me (after some haggling) and said that I should test the Book of Mormon by comparing it to the Bible. Exactly the opening I was hoping for. He also said that there was archaeological and physical evidence for the BOM, and that he'd be happy to get me some sources. He claimed that some of the Latin American Indian groups had legends that were "remarkably similar" to the BOM stories.

    So that's the assignment for next time: I am to start comparing the BOM and the Bible (and I already have lists of contradictions, in fact PFO actually published a booklet of them). And they are to come up with a source of archaeological evidence for the BOM. They said that there is actually a video they might be able to get about evidence for the BOM. Supposedly, when they have their ducks in a row, they will call to set up the next appointment. I'm curious whether they will call, or write me off as a poor prospect.

    In addition to the above, I picked apart the leaflet they distribute, The Testimony of Joseph Smith, about the early visions and the appearance of the angel Moroni. I pointed out how Joseph at one place predicted severe judgments from God that would come upon the United States "within this generation." (the generation when he was speaking, in the 1820's). I pointed out that that generation was long gone, and where were the judgments? They tried to spiritualize the generation, saying that it could still happen (sound familiar?). I told them that a generation is a specific thing, that it's not the same as saying "soon". I even told them about the Watchtower's "generation of 1914" prophecy. The discussion on that topic basically ended with them saying they didn't have an answer.

    Also in the leaflet, Moroni is said to have quoted from the Bible, but with slight variations from what the Bible said. I referred them to Galatians 1:8, and asked them what sort of angel would alter the words of scripture. They appeared to swallow hard, and again had no answer.

    Last, I got around to asking them about their teaching that God was once a man. I said, "So that means he was born as a baby?" They said yes. I asked to whom he was born, and they said that had not been revealed, but maybe it was to another god, who was born of another god, who was born of another god, ad infinitum. I asked them if they realized how far this teaching deviates from what regular Christianity and the Bible teach. They said they did. I asked them on what basis they believed it, and they responded that it had been revealed to their prophets. And how, I said, do you know that your prophets are true prophets? Then, finishing my own thought, I said, "so, really, you believe all this based on a warm fuzzy feeling?" At this point, they tried to backpedal a bit, and insisted that it wasn't just a warm fuzzy, but that God actually put it into their hearts to know that it was true. To which I responded, "in the same way that I once knew that Jehovah's Witnesses had the truth?"

    Reading what I've written, I may have made the visit sound more tense and confrontational that it was (of course, I can't speak for the missionaries ). It was actually pretty friendly and relaxed. Both of them were very nice young men. But I hope that I've given them some things to think about. I do hope that they call again, because I would really relish seeing them try to explain some of the discrepancies between the BOM and the Bible. Not to mention that, if there really is a video that tries to demonstrate serious evidence for the BOM, I'd love to get a copy.

    Note to Francois: I didn't forget your questions. I asked them about the salamander, and they both snickered and looked at me as if I was from Jupiter. It was the angel Moroni who delivered the plates to Joseph, not some lizard (There was something called a salamander letter, but I don't remember what it was, I'd have to look it up again - but it was obvious that these guys had no clue about it). And neither of them had ever read The Mormon Murders, so they had no thoughts to offer.

  • pandora
    pandora

    It's probably a little late to ask this question. I'm coming into this topic a day late and a dollar short. But hopefully someone will read this that will answer.

    Your assignment is to compare the BOM and the bible. Is there any comparison? Are the books suppose to be the same? or complimentary? or what? What do they say about their BOM verses the bible. Could you explain that to me? I don't know anything about the Mormans.

    Thank you.

    -P(J)

  • DJ
    DJ

    Hi Neon,

    Isn't there a guy name Blizzard?? that attends the PA conventions....wasn't he a mormon? Maybe he would be a help to you. Love, dj

  • shera
    shera

    Well ,I think the mormons have extremely odd beliefs.

    I go to a get together once a month and it is for any person who has left a high control religion and any body can go as well.There is one man there that is an x-mormon and he was beginning to study the JW religion ...well he changed his mind about having anything to do with the WTS.He watched videos and one tape he watched is "Jehovah's Wotnesses,A non -prophet Organization....over 100 yesrs of false prophecies and lies." I havent finished watching it yet but it seems to be a good video.He is very relieved he didn't sucked into this religion and thats how he felt it was happening...slowing getting sucked in.

    The Mormans also believe,God had sex with Mary.... as well,God the father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as mans.

    Heather

    (edited because I always proof read after I post...)

  • aunthill
    aunthill

    Neon - I grew up in the Las Vegas Valley, Henderson to be exact, and have lived here all my life. I hope you enjoyed your visit to our city. Whether you enjoyed it or not, it is an experience. Las Vegas is different from any other city in more ways than the obvious. Since I have lived here so long, I have gleaned a few facts along the way. My husband has a good friend who (thankfully he has not tried to convert us) is a Mormon, and my husband has asked him some blunt questions. David has always responded honestly, as far as I can tell. They do have some unusual beliefs - to my mind even more weird than the JW's.

    Mormons also believe that Jesus and Satan are brothers (sound a little like the JW's - both angels?). I wish I could find the site, but I went onto a Mormon website, and they had an animated video of their version of what happened in heaven Jesus and Satan, as the children of God.

    Mormons also believe that people have a prehuman existence, I am not sure, but something about little baby souls floating around heaven just waiting to be born so that they can complete the cycle and return to heaven. In the old days (when I was a child) a Mormon woman had to have at least 5 children, then she was guaranteed a place in heaven. Apparently that does not hold true today. (Sound like the WT? Changing doctrine to suit the situation, times or convenience.)

    Also, if a Mormon couple is "sealed" in the temple, they will be married in heaven forever. However, the husband has to "invite" the wife to come to heaven with him. I'm not sure what happens to her if he doesn't invite her., probably she doesn't get to the highest tier of heaven.

    Another thing: Bible history is continually being confirmed by archeology. There is no, repeat NO, archeological evidence to support the Book of Mormon.

    Enjoy your discussions. I look forward to seeing your posts on the subsequent visits.

  • Mulan
    Mulan

    The Mormons had a bit of a scandal recently regarding some of their teachings. They claim the American Indians are actually descendants of Babylonians or some such ridiculous stuff, and they came to America in a boat (truly). One of their members did DNA tests and disproved that teaching. He was excommunicated but appealed and they recanted. It happened here in our area, but I am "fuzzy" on the details. I feel it was true though.

  • NeonMadman
    NeonMadman
    Your assignment is to compare the BOM and the bible. Is there any comparison? Are the books suppose to be the same? or complimentary? or what? What do they say about their BOM verses the bible. Could you explain that to me? I don't know anything about the Mormans.

    Well, they claim that the teachings are identical, that one is a complement of the others. According to the BOM, just before the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonians, a bunch of Hebrews bailed out of Jerusalem and took boats to the New World, where they became the Aztecs, Incas, etc. After His resurrection and ascension, Jesus supposedly appeared to these peoples and taught them. They say this is reflected in the legends of Quetzalcoatl.

    The BOM is written in King James-type language, and often quotes the King James version of the Bible, even mistranslations and spurious texts in the KJV. Because it plagiarizes the Bible so freely, the BOM actually teaches some Christian doctrine and contradicts Mormon doctrine in some areas. It will be fun to present them with my "discoveries" and see how they respond.

  • NeonMadman
    NeonMadman
    Isn't there a guy name Blizzard?? that attends the PA conventions....wasn't he a mormon?

    If you're talking about Paul Blizard, no, I'm not aware of his ever having been a Mormon, though there are some ex-Mormons who go there. Paul was a JW for many years, and is now a Southern Baptist minister in West VA.

    I'm certainly not an expert on Mormonism, but I know quite a bit more about it than the average guy on the street. I certainly know enough to deal with the present situation with these missionaries (who don't seem all that knowledgable themselves), and if I need some backup at some point, I have plenty of contacts who can hook me up with a real expert.

    Don't worry - you won't see me riding around town on a bike wearing a white shirt, black pants and a backpack...

  • RevMalk
    RevMalk

    Ask them about the book of Isaiah, and why it's copied word for word in the BoM. Specifically quoting the KJV which uses the name "Lucipher" (which was a horribly inaccurate translation).

    And let me know if they have a good answer, I've been asking them for 17 years.

    Rev

    PS - Some questions I had a while back, and some other info:

  • NeonMadman
    NeonMadman
    I hope you enjoyed your visit to our city.

    Great place to visit. Not really my style, but we had a lot of fun in the few days we were there. On another morning, we drove the other way down I-15 just so I could say that I had been in California. We drove to the first exit in CA, pulled off the road, walked around in the desert for 20 minutes or so, then headed back (as my wife had to do some work that afternoon. While she was working, I went over to the Hilton, and went on the Star Trek ride, which was a lot of fun.

    I'm hoping to come back to the US Southwest one of these days; the year after next, my wife moves up to 4 weeks of vacation time, and I've always wanted to drive around the country, like down the East Coast, across the South and Southwest, up the West Coast, and across the Northern States. We may try to plan that for 2005. The country surrounding Las Vegas is truly beautiful; it would be a shame never to see it again.

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