Thanks for the response bohm. My personal belief is that materialism is a limiting belief and is not true so it doesn't scare me. I will admit however if I suddenly accepted it I have no words to describe how depressed I would be. That ultimately nothing matters (at least that's how I view it) would be too much to take and remain a happy, well-adjusted human being.
willmarite
JoinedPosts by willmarite
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69
Calling all materialists and non-materialists
by willmarite inread this comment by bertrand russell:.
that man is the product of causes which had no prevision of the end they were achieving; that his origin, his growth, his hopes and fears, his loves and his beliefs, are but the outcome of accidental collocations of atoms; that no fire, no heroism, no intensity of thought or feeling, can preserve an individual life beyond the grave; that all the labours of the ages, all the devotion, all the inspiration, all the noonday brightness of human genius, are destined to extinction in the vast death of the solar system; and the whole temple of mans achievement must inevitably be buried beneath the debris of a universe in ruins all these things, if not quite beyond dispute, are yet so nearly certain, that no philosophy that rejects them can hope to stand.
only within the scaffolding of these truths, only on the firm foundation of unyielding despair, can the souls habitation henceforth be safely built.. .
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69
Calling all materialists and non-materialists
by willmarite inread this comment by bertrand russell:.
that man is the product of causes which had no prevision of the end they were achieving; that his origin, his growth, his hopes and fears, his loves and his beliefs, are but the outcome of accidental collocations of atoms; that no fire, no heroism, no intensity of thought or feeling, can preserve an individual life beyond the grave; that all the labours of the ages, all the devotion, all the inspiration, all the noonday brightness of human genius, are destined to extinction in the vast death of the solar system; and the whole temple of mans achievement must inevitably be buried beneath the debris of a universe in ruins all these things, if not quite beyond dispute, are yet so nearly certain, that no philosophy that rejects them can hope to stand.
only within the scaffolding of these truths, only on the firm foundation of unyielding despair, can the souls habitation henceforth be safely built.. .
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willmarite
Thanks bohm, how did you feel after you accepted the above quote? Or if you don't, how would you feel?
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69
Calling all materialists and non-materialists
by willmarite inread this comment by bertrand russell:.
that man is the product of causes which had no prevision of the end they were achieving; that his origin, his growth, his hopes and fears, his loves and his beliefs, are but the outcome of accidental collocations of atoms; that no fire, no heroism, no intensity of thought or feeling, can preserve an individual life beyond the grave; that all the labours of the ages, all the devotion, all the inspiration, all the noonday brightness of human genius, are destined to extinction in the vast death of the solar system; and the whole temple of mans achievement must inevitably be buried beneath the debris of a universe in ruins all these things, if not quite beyond dispute, are yet so nearly certain, that no philosophy that rejects them can hope to stand.
only within the scaffolding of these truths, only on the firm foundation of unyielding despair, can the souls habitation henceforth be safely built.. .
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willmarite
Hi jgnat, if the materialist paradigm is true and we are just "gigantic lumbering robots" and our brains are just genetically programmed computers, how could we even take solace in being a bright spark for even just a moment?
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69
Calling all materialists and non-materialists
by willmarite inread this comment by bertrand russell:.
that man is the product of causes which had no prevision of the end they were achieving; that his origin, his growth, his hopes and fears, his loves and his beliefs, are but the outcome of accidental collocations of atoms; that no fire, no heroism, no intensity of thought or feeling, can preserve an individual life beyond the grave; that all the labours of the ages, all the devotion, all the inspiration, all the noonday brightness of human genius, are destined to extinction in the vast death of the solar system; and the whole temple of mans achievement must inevitably be buried beneath the debris of a universe in ruins all these things, if not quite beyond dispute, are yet so nearly certain, that no philosophy that rejects them can hope to stand.
only within the scaffolding of these truths, only on the firm foundation of unyielding despair, can the souls habitation henceforth be safely built.. .
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willmarite
Read this comment by Bertrand Russell:
“That man is the product of causes which had no prevision of the end they were achieving; that his origin, his growth, his hopes and fears, his loves and his beliefs, are but the outcome of accidental collocations of atoms; that no fire, no heroism, no intensity of thought or feeling, can preserve an individual life beyond the grave; that all the labours of the ages, all the devotion, all the inspiration, all the noonday brightness of human genius, are destined to extinction in the vast death of the solar system; and the whole temple of Man’s achievement must inevitably be buried beneath the debris of a universe in ruins— all these things, if not quite beyond dispute, are yet so nearly certain, that no philosophy that rejects them can hope to stand. Only within the scaffolding of these truths, only on the firm foundation of unyielding despair, can the soul’s habitation henceforth be safely built.”
On this thread I’m not interested in debating whether this statement is true or not. Many on this forum would accept this statement as truth and I’d like to know how this statement has affected you since you accepted it.
I imagine some coming from a toxic spiritual environment like we've experienced as JWs would feel a sense of relief of not having to measure up to some moral or spiritual standard.
If you don’t believe this statement to be true, how would it change you if you suddenly accepted it as being true? How would you feel?
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God has no plan for anyone ever lived?!
by Mr Fool inaccording to jw all people are born by chance and death also come by chance, a lottery.
therefore no one is meant to be.
if god has a plan for certain volume of people (kind of 144 000), how can that be if he has no idea which kind of souls being created (by accident)?.
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willmarite
If the materialism paradigm were correct then our consciousness would be created by the physical brain. Our sense of identity and all our thoughts which translate into emotions which lead to actions would be dictated by the firings of synapses in the brain. A pedophile couldn't help but molest children. The only thing Hitler could have done was kill millions of Jews. An alcoholic who stops drinking only does so because of chemicals in his brain make him stop.
This rebels against common sense. My personal opinion is if you start with a mistaken belief especially if its viewed as being infallible even if you use logical thought you will come up with answers that rebel against common sense and intuition.
This is one of the reasons I do not believe in materialism. It is a good exercise to follow thru with logical thought what the ramifications of materialism are. This is not to say it can not be true but I do not believe it to be the most likely answer.
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Do God and Jesus have free will? No they do not. Proven in this thread.
by Comatose indoes god have free will?
does god have free will?
why couldn't they be like him in that they had free will but just wouldn't or couldn't be bad?.
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willmarite
Hi comatose. I wouldn't say evil is a tangible thing. It is simply the absense of enlightenment. The increase of enlightenment goes hand in hand with the decrease of evil acts.
Free will by it's very nature must include unenlightened acts.
What if a well-to-do father made it the mission of his life to never allow his son to fail at something. At school if the son was doing poorly the father paid off teachers to make sure they gave his son an A in every subject. When the son graduated the father pulled strings not only to get him a good job but made sure by payoffs or threats everyone treated his son like he was the smartest person in the company. Would the son have learned much in his life? Would not the "love" of the father actually be selfishness in not wanting any son of his to be seen as failing at something?
Failing at something is a fairly big way how we as humans learn lessons. We can do anything we decide to do. This is the universal law of free will. Another universal law is the law of karma, reaping what we sow, or whatever you want to call it.
It is not unfair of the creator to make it so that if a human is selfish, close-minded, jealous etc. that human will be unhappy. Likewise if a human becomes enlightened and realizes his oneness with every other human and correspondingly loves all like he loves himself he will be happy and feel fulfillled.
These are lessons we learn in the schoolroom called Earth.
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A Manual for Creating Atheists by Peter Boghossian
by cofty ina manual for creating atheists offers the first-ever guide not for talking people into faith--but for talking them out of it.
peter boghossian draws on the tools he has developed and used for more than twenty years as a philosopher and educator to teach how to engage the faithful in conversations that will help them value reason and rationality, cast doubt on their religious beliefs, mistrust their faith, abandon superstition and irrationality, and ultimately embrace reason.
- amazon.... "boghossian has provided an indispensible chart book for all of us who must navigate the rising sea of magical thinking that is inundating america today.
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willmarite
Cofty, I'm simply saying I'm an amaterialist. I'm not here to convince you of anything. I'm only promoting an open mind along with the realization that there is much that humans do not know.
There are many people who have expericenced god, to try to convince them using the philosophy of materialism that they're expericences are just hallucinations or indications of a deranged mind will not bear fruit. They know that something higher than them exists.
However they should not use their experiences as a means to convince anybody of a higher powers existence. This must be done by each individual.
You have the right to believe in materialism and I have no desire to try to convince you otherwise. There are no infallible beliefs in this world including materialism.
I have no affiliation with The Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University.
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188
A Manual for Creating Atheists by Peter Boghossian
by cofty ina manual for creating atheists offers the first-ever guide not for talking people into faith--but for talking them out of it.
peter boghossian draws on the tools he has developed and used for more than twenty years as a philosopher and educator to teach how to engage the faithful in conversations that will help them value reason and rationality, cast doubt on their religious beliefs, mistrust their faith, abandon superstition and irrationality, and ultimately embrace reason.
- amazon.... "boghossian has provided an indispensible chart book for all of us who must navigate the rising sea of magical thinking that is inundating america today.
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willmarite
Hi cofty. You said "Only believers have the burden of proof. Atheists simply find the case for god to be unconvincing."
Technically this is true. However, usually atheism comes with a world view namely materialism. This is not a non-belief and must be proven.
I could classify myself as an amaterialist that is to say a non-believer in the philosophy of materialism. Now the burden of proof is on you.
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Do God and Jesus have free will? No they do not. Proven in this thread.
by Comatose indoes god have free will?
does god have free will?
why couldn't they be like him in that they had free will but just wouldn't or couldn't be bad?.
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willmarite
Hi comatose. I don't think I'm understanding your reasonings.
Does god have free will? Yes. If we are made in his image then we are gods in training and also have free will.
Could god do something evil? Of course. If it decided to step down in consciousness and be less.
I don't think it is possible to instill a new creation with god-like knowledge, god-like experience, and god-like qualities such as divine love, forgiveness etc. These things must be learned by experience and personal discovery.
If we didn't have the capability of doing heinous crimes we would never discover that we only hurt ourselves when we hurt others. Without the capability of making wrong choices there is no growth.
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"you're pretty compassionate for an atheist"
by Hortensia inmy favorite compliment of the day.
what a lot of assumptions people have about what makes an atheist tick..
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willmarite
Hi cofty, yes I'm an ex-JW. I haven't figured out yet how to start a new thread since there appears there isn't any way for me to do so. Perhaps you have to make a few posts before being allowed to start a thread.
I haven't attended any meetings for a couple years but my wife is still an active JW.
Haven't heard of RoseMary, who's she?