Posts by Magnum

49

What the Trinitarian perspective on John 8.28?

by slimboyfat in

this is not a verse that i’ve seen feature heavily in trinitarian debates but it seems to me it presents a problem for the trinity.

if there are any around i’d be interested to know your perspective, or anything you can find on the meaning and how it doesn’t contradict the trinity.

the verse says:.

Magnum

Joh 8:28 is one of many passages that, to me, indicate very simply and straightforwardly that Jesus and God are completely separate entities as JWs teach. Other passages indicate that God "sent" Jesus, "approved" of him, "loved" him, etc. Such language logically indicates that they are separate and distinct. Wasn't the Bible supposed to have been written in a way that would be clear to the masses, to common people? To try to make such passages harmonize with the Trinitarian view requires mental gymnastics that are beyond the ability of the common man. Why would the master teacher, Jesus, speak in such an esoteric way, a way that would misrepresent or cause people to believe wrongly?

I have thought about this a lot lately. My only answer to that question would be that maybe he was intentionally speaking in a way that would hide the real truth in order to see who would dig deeper and put forth effort to arrive at truth... sort of like the way he did with parables; he would speak in parables to see who would come back to him and try to figure out what he really meant.... to see who was really interested and would put forth effort to find truth.

My current belief is aligned with that of JWs. I don't believe Jesus was hiding anything with his language; I'm just exploring that option. To me, the great bulk of the NT shows the separateness and distinctness of Father, Son, and holy spirit. Consider Mt 3:16,17:

As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”

How could this passage allow for the Trinitarian belief? It shows all three elements of the so-called Trinity in three different places at the same time. God was in heaven, Jesus was on earth, and the holy spirit was in between ("descending"), all at the same time. That, to me, just makes it clear that they are separate and distinct. Also, God said he was "well pleased" with Jesus; doesn't that logically indicate they're separate?

P.S. A few weeks ago Sea Breeze, mentioned on this site Joh 2:19-21:

Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.” They replied, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?” But the temple he had spoken of was his body.

I have given some thought to that, the Trinitarian argument being that Jesus resurrected himself (or at least his body?). That is, to me, one of the best Trinitarian arguments. I even looked at the Greek to see whether the verb (in "I will raise it") was in the passive voice so that it could mean "it will be raised," but the verb is in the active voice, so it should be translated with an actor (indicating someone performing action) as in "I will raise it," not "it will be raised" which does specify the actor.

I'm still pondering this passage. However, right now I feel that the overwhelming bulk of the evidence shows that God and Jesus are separate. I think of this: Suppose a wreck occurs at the big intersection and 997 out of a 1000 eyewitnesses say the traffic light was green, but three say it was red. I think it would be reasonable to be assume that the light was green and to try to figure out why the three said it was red. Was the sun obscuring their vision? Do they have some kind of color-blindness? Are they lying?

I think of Trinitarian "proof texts" as being like the three witnesses in the illustration above. I completely grasp the Trinitarian argument in connection with Joh 2:19-21; I'm just trying to explore the passage in the context of the entire NT (the 997 witnesses) and what I consider to be the overwhelming evidence concerning the nature of God and Jesus.

37

They Came To The Door!

by NotFormer in

jw
friends

going door to door with their "memorial" invitation.

"so you can pass the emblems but nobody partakes?

them: "we can explain who is to partake".. me: "all jesus' followers".

Magnum

nowwhat?: Yep, the days of jdubs defending their beliefs are long gone

TonusOH: They are not prepared for someone who understands their beliefs and can challenge them.

NofFormer: they used to know what they believed and would defend it vigorously.

WingCommander: There is no fight or argument left in them. There is no "Theocratic Ministry School" to teach them proper responses and even the old brown "Reasoning from the Scriptures" book is considered "Old Light" and never referenced. It's simply, "Here, take this card and visit the JW.borg website. Bye!" as they anxiously scurry off to their coffee break. Better yet if they are manning a JW cart, because really - who comes up to them? LOL!!! Nobody!

Totally agree with all posts above. For any lurking here who are still on the fence, please note what's been posted here. This is a major indication that JWs are not what they claim to be. Would the one and only people of the sovereign of the universe be representing him like this? Shouldn't they be boldly defending their doctrine and strongly and boldly giving a clear shout of warning to an entire world they think is about to be violently destroyed? JWs actuallly are insecure about their beliefs, even if it's subconsciously. They like to talk with people who have very little knowledge and who make them feel superior. They get insecure when talking with people who are knowledgeable and label those people as "not ready for the truth" or something like that.

WingCommander: It's the cringiest cult on the planet, and it just keeps getting dumber and even more cultier.

Yep! Again, that shows they are not... they cannot be... what they claim to be. With the light supposedly getting brighter, they should be getting bolder and their message should be getting clearer and they should be getting better able to defend it, but the opposite of all that is happening. JWs are inept, cowardly, insecure, ignorant, etc.

10

Finding Neverland

by Freeorange in

add bookmark.

#1. i have to start off this post by saying i am not intending to insult or offend.

these are just our observations over our entire lives in the org.

Magnum

TonusOH: because "the world situation is too bad to continue like this"

My own mother just told me that very recently. I remember vividly her saying that very same thing when I was a child in the 1970's. In her slow, country accent: "Ooh, listen, crime has gotten so bad that the end has to be near."

Literally 50yrs later, she's saying the same thing.

I am certain of this much: if the WTS had said back in 1975 that the end would come sometime after 2023, and not before, she would have walked away right then and there. Saying that "soon" meant "more than 50 years" would have sounded so preposterous that she would have said 'no' and moved on with her life.

If they had said back in the 70's that the end would come sometime after 2023, that would have greatly changed the whole feel, look, dynamic, etc. of the religion.

32

New approach to ministry

by Mikejw in

jw
friends

there is a new approach to ministry where the direction is to just talk to people and listen to what they want to talk about.

the new school for the midweek meeting is completely different and is all about the new approach .

even before the no reporting changes field service dropped right off.

Magnum

Mikejw: Most JWs have completely missed the largest change in recent JW history

Yeah, I've noticed that in general; we know JWism better than JWs do.

Phizzy: closed system that is the J.W Bubble of Ignorance

That system is, unfortunately, going strong.

3

Elfdalian - a minority language spoken in Sweden

by LoveUniHateExams in

just found an interesting little video (älvdalska förklarad = 'elfdalian explained').. elfdalian is a separate language spoken in dalarna, sweden by a few thousand people.. in swedish, the letter w is rarely used, and when it is it is pronounced as v. but elfdalian has w and it's pronounced just like english w. so, 'white' is vit in swedish, but wait in elfdalian, pronounced like english white.. elfdalian also has the letter ð, ð, which features not in swedish but in icelandic and faeroese.

how cool is that?!.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cle7wfv3r6w.

Magnum

Thanks, LoveUniHateExams; language is fascinating to me and is on my list of things to study when I can (linguistics, individual languages, history and evolution of languages, etc.).

road to nowhere: Only if it is in an upscale area.

You got that right. You think like the Great Leaders in New York. Maybe they have a position open for you.

32

New approach to ministry

by Mikejw in

jw
friends

there is a new approach to ministry where the direction is to just talk to people and listen to what they want to talk about.

the new school for the midweek meeting is completely different and is all about the new approach .

even before the no reporting changes field service dropped right off.

Magnum

no-zombie:

We've gone down from a 5 scripture 10 minute talk, to a 3 scripture 5 minute chat, then a 1 minute video, to now a 15 second happy smile.
How is this going to teach anyone anything? Its not going to, of course.

It sure isn't going to teach anybody anything. They actually weren't teaching well or giving a strong, fair warning with their previous methods, but this new method is far worse. Do they really think what they're doing now constitutes an appropriate, fair, just warning to an entire world about to be violently destroyed? I mean, damn, come on; we get better warnings for a flash flood or local tornado.

Do they really think they are giving a Jericho-like shout??? JWdom is done and the leaders know it. They are just trying to keep the gig going. There's no way in Southern Baptist Hell they could think their new version of the ministry is fulfilling Mt 24:14 and that it suffices as a fair warning. People who are about to be eternally destroyed will have every right to look at JWs and say "Hey, dudes, you didn't say anything about this; you just told us which donut flavor you thought was best."

Phizzy:

Converts from the public are now totally a thing of the past, unless a J.W comes across the rare Gullible Fool!

The Org. is in a downward spiral, thankfully.

I strongly agree with both of those points. As I mentioned above, JWdom is done. It is simply in survival mode and the Great Leaders want to keep the gig going for selfish reasons. Their ministry should be getting louder, clearer, stronger as the end they foretell draws closer, yet the opposite is happening. What little ministry still exists is faint, puny, unclear. This, to me, is one of the biggest indicators that JWdom is not what it claims to be. I just don't comprehend how any still in cannot see it for what it is. I cannot fathom how my relatives can still be in and not see something majorly wrong.

10

Finding Neverland

by Freeorange in

add bookmark.

#1. i have to start off this post by saying i am not intending to insult or offend.

these are just our observations over our entire lives in the org.

Magnum

we were gonna be in paradise soon! No need for higher education, buying a house, or even braces - Jehovah will fix those crooked teeth soon!

Yep, was there for that!

Our congregation had “October Frank” reminding us every October “This is it! The GT is gonna happen in October“! BTW Frank has been dead for over 10 years.

Yeah, October was da month!

My extremely zealous 110% JW grandfather and I would get into arguments in the 90's when I would bring up the fact that the end was overdue. He would say loudly and strongly "It's umminent! It's umminent!" (He pronounced "imminent" as "umminent."). He's been dead over 20 years, and the end still ain't nowhere in sight.

Things started changing somewhere around the mid 90s

Yes, I totally agree. That's when the wind began to leave my JW sails. Before that, I had been a zealous, greatly sacrificing reg pio who would have unhesitatingly died for the religion. I think the "generation" doctrine change in early 1995 was the turning point. We got all the way to the goal line and they moved the goal post to some hazy location where we couldn't even see it anymore.

After 1995, I really started hearing myself in the ministry. In earlier times, I had been well-known as being adept in the ministry. I would describe paradise in vivid terms to those I encountered in the field. But around 1995, when I really started hearing myself, it began to sound unrealistic, cultish, fantastical. We were going to literally live forever on earth? ...a small rock upon which all living things die and recycle? ... a planet which, according to well-known science is going to be engulfed by the sun when it enters another stage of its existence and starts to expand? We were going to pet lions and never get cavities in our teeth and build beautiful houses and all get along while wearing khaki pants and eating fruit? It just started sounding unrealistic, and it was never the same after that. It was all downhill.

I recall the stir it caused in the late 80s at the SF convention when the brother‘s talk praised couples who remained childless for the sake of the good news!

I don't know whether this is what you're referring to, but there was a major dist conv talk in the late 80's titled something like "Responsible Childbearing in the Time of the End." It basically indicated that we were so close to the end that couples should give serious thought to having children. I will never forget that talk.

no children to care for them when they get older, and the years keep clipping away.

That is a major concern to me. I wouldn't expect my children to serve me and be my caretakers, but I would like to have someone who would care that I exist and make sure I'm not mistreated if I go to a nursing home. I observe my employer and his family. He has two boys and two girls, all 30ish. They all have a really good relationship. He will have somebody to visit him and make sure he's OK when he's older. He did the same with both of his parents who died in the last few years. I observed all that the whole while thinking that my wife and I will have nobody - not one single soul. I worry that I will die first and leave her completely alone in the world. I'm working desperately now to get our affairs in order so that if I go first, things will be easier on her. If she goes first and I start getting weak, I plan on just going to a desert in the American West and hiking off, preferably to some mountains and dying under the stars. I don't want to go to a nursing home with no family to check on me - to just be placed there to die.

And to think... I was told my whole life that I was going to live forever in paradise and now my hope is to just find the best way to die.

That was a flat out lie! Their home was foreclosed on and they tried to hang on to it tooth and nail!

Totally believable story. Sounds just like many of the JWs I knew. I know one who is to this day a prominent elder. He has almost a sickness about money. He didn't have that much, but he was extremely miserly almost in an unhealthy way. He worked in a parts department for a certain industry and he lost his job. He would NEVER have given it up... NEVER. He started doing cleaning work after he lost his job and he started pioneering. The story went around that he gave up his job to pioneer; it was total BS; he lost that job.

Now the reality of no savings, no retirement plan

I'm one of those who will never get tor retire because of listening to and obeying the org. During my years of serving the org fulltime, I never received any help from others; I worked grueling jobs to support myself. And all the time, others actually asked me for help. I worked on others' houses and cars for nothing. I loaned them money and gave them money. I contributed when others needed money for medical treatment, tires for their cars, etc. And now, I am stuck working with no relief in sight.

*************

Yeah, JWs still seek their Neverland. The old-timers are confused; it was supposed to have long been here by now, but it must be just around the corner.

I, myself, still seek Neverland, just not the JW version. I just can't make myself give up all hope. I still seek answers. I now look to math and physics for answers, and I see things in those areas that make me thing there might be something else besides the realm we experience now... that there might some kind of higher being(s) responsible for our realm.

I fully understand and can completely relate to your entire post. Those who have never been JWs and even JWs who didn't experience it in the 70's, 80's, & 90's will not be able to fully relate. I've noticed that over on the exJW reddit, there are mostly younger exJWs who were not around in the earlier years, and they just can't relate to what it was like then.

144

Hailstone message AND everyone will be saved? Questions

by slimboyfat in

i’ve not been paying close attention to watchtower developments, but talking to a jw yesterday it occurred to me the society (yes, still use that term - old school) have been sending out mixed messages in recent years.

from what i gather, a few years ago the gb announced that during the great tribulation jws would be required to preach a “hailstone message of judgement” which involved telling people it was too late for them to repent and they were definitely going to be destroyed.

there were hints that this could be very soon, “any day now” preaching could stop and the hailstone message come in, kind of thing.

Magnum

The great irony in all of this is that we're talking about JWs' delivering a hailstone message in the future when the truth is that they are receiving one now. They are being pulverized by hailstones of all sizes. The internet unleashed the fury of the skies on JW Land. It is running desperately for cover... just trying to survive. The org is in survival mode now - trying to adapt and become more mainstream and relevant. It has sold out, showing its true nature/colors. It has jumped the shark. JWs at carts get hit by hailstones and they tuck their tails between their legs and leave in insecurity and cowardice; they run for cover from the hail. The org is being exposed and pulverized by hailstones in all types of media and even by governments.

There is no way JWdom could ever deliver a hailstone message. As I've mentioned several times lately, JWs are legends in their own minds. I swear I would face all nine (or however many there are now) members of the GB by myself in a public debate, but they would never agree to such. I've got a bag of hailstones to deliver right at them. Where is their god... on the privy? He won't protect them and show them to be right?

The JW preaching is not even a slight mist; much more so is it not and much more so never will it or can it be a hailstorm. What are they going to say?... "You better listen to us! You're going to die! We said back in 1879... oh, well, wait.. no... we said back in 1925... oh, well, wait, forget that... we said in the early 70's... oh, well, wait, uhmmm, no, not that.... I'll get back with you... I'm going to do some research."

P.S. Plus, the whole scenario just doesn't make sense. It's always been presented as a time of great tribulation when false religion has been exposed/abolished by governmental forces and the oh so pure and innocent JWs have been left alone. But JWdom is being exposed right now by governments. Why would JWs be free to deliver some kind of hailstone message during this supposed tribulation?

JWs can't face the challenges of preaching right now! How are they going to fare during some kind of worldwide tribulation? Nobody pays them any attention and for good reason; they're clueless, insignificant nobodies. How are they going to deliver this hailstone message during this supposed tribulation... point people to a corny, lame website? Give them a lame tract? The JW message is unclear now. What's going to happen to clear it up in the future? If, hypothetically, JWs are right, then there is extreme injustice in that they are not delivering a clear warning message now - giving people a fair chance now.

23

How will history treat Judge Rutherford?

by Vanderhoven7 in

mark jones writes:.

how will history treat joseph rutherford?.

like ben gorden has said, it would depend on who’s looking back.

Magnum

St George of England, a few years ago a 35ish JW female approached me in a parking lot and attempted to give me a tract. I mentioned Fred Franz to her and found out that she had never even heard of him. That was astonishing to me. He was of the most influential figures in JW history (in the top three or four), and she had never even heard of him.

10

message for belbab

by hellenback in

i know 2 names of elders at bromley cong robert slee who was spitting image of rutherford and gerald archer.

another was peter king..

Magnum

Always interested to find out what happened to the people I remember

Yeah, me too. Sometimes I google names out of curiosity just to see if I can find info. For example, I'd love to be able to find out about the few remaining JWs whom I knew decades ago and who were eagerly anticipating the end back then. Are they still JWs? What are they thinking now that the old JWdom is gone and it's 2024 with no end?