there are alot of new members here, and i just wanted to say that although most here don't believe that the wt is "god's organization" there are many such as myself (i have never been a jw) that believe that the bible is inspired scripture*.
loosing faith in a religious organization does not necessarily mean that you must also loose faith in god.
i have a personal relationship withn the god of the bible and can tell you that he is real and wonderful.
hooberus:
Thanks for this posting. I've found that some XJWs have abandon all faith in the Bible and Christianity. But I've also noticed that many of their postings are geared to "tearing down" and not "building up." Perhaps, it is because they have nothing to offer in its stead.
But something is accomplished with their agnostic/athiestic views. It tests our own Christian faith and strengthens our resolve.
i was asked how come the bible says that god forgives blasphemy to the father and the son, but not the holy spirit.
if they all are god, what makes the person of the holy spirit more important regarding blasphemy than the father or the son.
sorry, i don't know much about the bible, but i'm trying to learn here, alright?
Opps!
I think we're slipping into a discussion of the trinity again.....
swaggart ministries v. cal.
amicus curiae ".
amicus curiae '
bluesapphire
I think the issue had more to do with the taxing of religious literature than with the door to door ministry of Jehovah's Witnesses. As you know, they are free to do their ministry work under the present arrangement. And except for an occasional "blip" no one questions this right.
The Watchtower Society has always made the placement of its literature as an integral part of the ministry of JWs. The early Christian ministry was much simpler. Some evangelizers might have carried scrolls of the Old Testament (and even this is not certain) but their ministry was primarily done by word of mouth. So, the idea that a huge publishing empire is needed to spread the "gospel" is rather a modern invention. And it is selfserving.
All the new arrangement of the Watchtower Society has done is to put the burden of expense upon its members. The Watchtower Society itself does not take a loss. It never did. The Kingdom Halls always covered the expenses. But, at least, under the old arrangement the "publishers" could expect a little return for their output.
on the news it was reported that the newly appointed archbishop of boston (o'malley} spoke of the sins of the "clergy, religious and hierarchy" in mishandling the sexual abuse of children within the church.
and he promised to correct and to heal the church.
it remains to be seen if he can do this.
Yerusalem:
I agree. I never meant to imply that the Catholic church's early handling of the sexual abuse cases was exactly like the Watchtower. There are the obvious differences as you correctly point out. One of the major differences was, as you said, they never excommunicated the victims. And that is a very important point. Also, the bishops in other diocese were able to use their own descretion (somewhat) to handle these cases.
At least in the Boston area, the Catholic church has enjoyed the protection of the politicians for many years. This kind of exposure would have never occurred during the time that Cushing and Medeiros (sp?) controlled the church in this area. It is now known that reported abuse cases went back to their tenure. Thanks to the persistence of the Boston Globe, this whole scandal opened up a secret closet of the entire church. One does question, though, whether the other bishops and archbishops in other diocese would have looked into this issue on their own without this unfavorable publicity.
swaggart ministries v. cal.
amicus curiae ".
amicus curiae '
I think the difficulty of agreement is in the viewpoint. The legal aspect is perfectly clear and understandable. Of course, the Watchtower had a right to take this action for its own interest. I think we are all in agreement with that.
But it is the Watchtower's religious aspect that is in question. Over the years, it stressed to all of us that we should not do things that even "give appearance of sin." Thus, many brothers were thrown into a quandry for having the slightest association with "Babylon the Great." So, many of us were shocked when it supported this effort of the Jimmy Swaggart Ministries in its legal battle. It gave the appearance of association, legal or otherwise. Perhaps, the Watchtower itself was sensitive to the issue when it quickly withdrew.
Maybe it is making "a mountain out of a mole hill." But for us who had to digest all of the Watchtower's rules and regulations over the years while it pontificated about the dangers of being part of "Babylon the Great" the mole hill is a mountain!
back in this thread, the generation doctrine was being discussed.
i've thought about what the society wrote below.how long a time period would these last days prove to be?
jesus said regarding the era that would experience the "beginning of pangs of distress" from 1914 onward: "this generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur.
I thought the change of the Watchtower teaching of "the generation" would have a much greater impact than it seemed to have. The teaching that the generation of 1914 would be alive at Armageddon was pretty fundamental for many years. For the Watchtower to generalize its meaning had to make some seriously think about the whole belief system of JWs.
Discussions about "the generation" was one of the topics that became common among friends and family just before I left the Watchtower. I shared my conclusion that the Society would have to change its explanation because that generation was dying off. And, of course, it did.
Do any of you know someone who left the organization specifically because of this change?
.
well, only god knows their heart, it is not for us to judge the person.. a family member died recently, and was never a jw, (only smart one in the bunch, and me of course).. well, someone had the nerve to say the above comment, no one ever invited him over, or visited him,had any real connection with him.
but after he dies ............... well, you get the picture.
Yes, Jourles, I heard the same sentiments over the years. It is amazing how Jehovah's Witnesses had the capacity to judge people even before God does. I wonder if they ever realize that they violate the Christian principles "Judge not lest you be judged" and "the same judgment you render will be rendered to you."
I often wondered why Christ said the heavier judgement would be upon the one who called his brother "raca" (fool). But I'm begining to understand now what he really meant: one who has called his brother a "fool" is claiming to be able to read the heart and attribute motive. "The fool has said in his heart, 'there is no God.' " Only God has this ability....and only God can render judgement.
subliminal images in watchtower stuff:.
http://watchtower.observer.org/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=subliminalimages and there are many more than this.. what i want to know is - why?
what purposes do these images serve?
Rem:
I agree with you. People see things in clouds or in the patterns of wallpaper. It doesn't mean that the sources are from the devil. Even if the artist pulled a prank, it doesn't mean that it was done with the approval of the leaders of the Watchtower Society. There are enough legitimate faults in the organization without 'grasping at straws."
i was asked how come the bible says that god forgives blasphemy to the father and the son, but not the holy spirit.
if they all are god, what makes the person of the holy spirit more important regarding blasphemy than the father or the son.
sorry, i don't know much about the bible, but i'm trying to learn here, alright?
Meadows77:
Very good point! Even some of Jesus' healings were attributed to Beelzebub by his enemies. They simply refused to recognize the workings of the holy spirit. They had God's son in their midst, they observed the miracles he was performing and they heard the message he proclaimed. In a sense, all three were products of the holy spirit: Jesus' birth, his miracles and his message.
i was asked how come the bible says that god forgives blasphemy to the father and the son, but not the holy spirit.
if they all are god, what makes the person of the holy spirit more important regarding blasphemy than the father or the son.
sorry, i don't know much about the bible, but i'm trying to learn here, alright?
Christopher:
You might want to sit quietly by yourself and analyze why you have so much aggression towards Christians and Christianity. Then, you might want to get a good history book and read it THOROUGHLY and come back to share your new found knowledge with all of us.
Thanks for sharing in this "sad conversation."
