Posts by imallgrowedup

the taxes filed thread got me to thinking....what say we here in the us go to a flat tax....18% for those who make over $35,000 a year...no deductions.

hmmmmm?

I got to thinking about this a little more, and was thinking that because different areas within the country, or even within a state have different economies, there are instances where a flat tax may not work well because of the cut-off point for not having to pay any taxes. For example, in California, $35k would barely cover most living expenses, and could actually be deemed poverty level in some areas here, especially if there are children. I wonder if a flat tax could be implemented, but the cut-off for not paying any taxes could be scaled according to the cost-of-living in a given area? What are your thoughts?

growedup

33

UN v Religion - The're at it again !!!

by Amazing in

jw
friends

un proposal: i picked up a comment on another site about a supposed resolution that was to be introduced to the un on january 27th, 2004 that would effectively ban religion.

if this is true, then the jw leaders (governing buzzards) and their followers will have a prophetic field day!!!

here is the link to the claim: http://www.emediawire.com/releases/2004/1/emw100794.htm.

imallgrowedup

Jim,

" ...and generally feel that their religion is the TRUTH and all others are enemies that need to be converted or destroyed or both."
JWs might believe that ... but among most Christian and Jewish faiths, they believe in tolerance and accept one another equally. For example Conservative Baptists accept Pentecostals, and Pentecostals accept Conservative Baptists as 'Brothers in Christ' ... and they do not see their unique religious opinions as the "Truth" ... but as their opinions ... this "We vs Them" mentality is not as common and is primarily confined to weird little groups like the Jehovah's Witnesses.

I agree 100%. In fact, in my church, we actually pray for other churches, which is a source of wonder for visitors. I used to be in the "first time visitors" ministry where I would call these people, and invariably I would hear how they liked the fact that our church does not push ourselves on people, that we encourage visitors to visit all the churches in the area before deciding on a church home, and that we actually pray for other churches. Additionally, I am a "non-denominational" Christian, but have many friends who are Pentacostals, Baptists, Presbyterian, etc. I even have friends who are agnostic or aetheistic. However, contrary to SLM's experiences, I would never say anything to anyone about where I think their souls will finally rest, regardless of their beliefs. Besides the fact that it is not my place to presume where God intends for them to go, pronouncements like those have a tendency to turn people off from God. Why focus on negativity, when the positive reasons to choose God are sooooo much better and a lot more enticing?

SYN,

Love your parody!!! Totally hilarious!

growedup

49

FLAT TAX

by Yerusalyim in

jw
friends

the taxes filed thread got me to thinking....what say we here in the us go to a flat tax....18% for those who make over $35,000 a year...no deductions.

hmmmmm?

imallgrowedup

Six,

It's just odd to me, because it really is just semantics. I see no substantial difference between what you're talking about, and what rem was talking about initially. So this is a case where none of the ideas presented are at all "polar to your own", and it still somehow seems to have come out looking more like disagreement than agreement. I just find it bizzarre.

You are exactly right about this! Oh no! Then that would mean you are exactly right that we can actually find something to agree on! I was w-w-w-w-rong and you were *looks around to see if anyone is listening, then quietly* right! What is happening to me?!!!!!

I believe that there are so many things where people disagree where all it really does come down to is semantics - yet - as you pointed out - somehow it ends up looking more like disagreement than agreement. I think the confusion lies in the fact that we are both looking at the exact same scenario, so it seems the same. However, because our world views are different, we are interpreting it in different ways, and that is where the confusion comes in. I have to tell you, I spent a great deal of time trying to figure out how to explain how I think this works, and after no fewer than seven drafts I finally decided to just "let it go" because the complexity of it began to appear to be more like a master's thesis than a JWD post! But the conclusion I came to - whether I am right or not - is that one reason why it may have seemed confusing to you is because you actually caught a glimpse of what I was trying to say - in spite of your differing world view. And to tell you the truth, I think that is awesome because it only confirms what you said:

I disagree that we know we won't agree! Seldom is my mind ever "made up" on any given subject.

Anyway, now that I've gotten to know you a little better, I look forward to finding many other things we can agree on! (Ooooh! I'm feeling all warm and fuzzy inside! You better run while you can!!!)

Your Friend,

growedup

49

FLAT TAX

by Yerusalyim in

jw
friends

the taxes filed thread got me to thinking....what say we here in the us go to a flat tax....18% for those who make over $35,000 a year...no deductions.

hmmmmm?

imallgrowedup

Six -

We could spend all day on the semantics of the difference between a "hidden tax" or a "cost of business", but we could sure save a lot of time and aggravation by agreeing that I don't believe we pay "hidden taxes" with corporations when we do business with them, and you do. Every once in a while I need a reminder that no matter how hard I try, there are going to be some people who I am never going to convince to see things my way - and whose ideas are so polar to my own, that I know there could never be any kind of agreement on basic world beliefs. I've learned in other threads that when two people do not share the same basic ideals of society, politics and the nature of mankind, the only thing that is sure to happen if they insist on trying to convince one another of the merits of their own point of view, is that they both end up with a whole lot of ugly hanging out of their mouths (and fingers). Six, we've had these types of discussions in the past, and although I admire your passion, we don't share the same fundamental world beliefs, and we both know it. I don't want to knock my head against the wall with you - your mind is already made up, and so is mine! So what would be the point of us comparing rich people to poor people, or "hidden taxes" to "costs of business" or "widgets" to "gadgets"? We both know we won't agree.

I'm sorry that the reality is this stark, but we both know it is true. I would much rather try to find common ground with you in a lighter setting - perhaps in a fun thread or in chat, than be wary of you because I know we will only "get into it" with one another. Can we just agree to disagree and have a little fun instead?

growedup

39

Saddam bribed Chirac?

by MegaDude in

iraqi govt.

papers: saddam bribed chirac .

baghdad, iraq, jan. 28 (upi) -- documents from saddam hussein's oil ministry reveal he used oil to bribe top french officials into opposing the imminent u.s.-led invasion of iraq.. the oil ministry papers, described by the independent baghdad newspaper al-mada, are apparently authentic and will become the basis of an official investigation by the new iraqi governing council, the independent reported wednesday.. "i think the list is true," naseer chaderji, a governing council member, said.

imallgrowedup

Gerard:

France's leading newspaper "Le Figaro" is reporting nothing on this on any section : http://www.lefigaro.fr/international/
And neither does "Al Jazeera": http://english.aljazeera.net/HomePage

That's about all the confirmation I need to know that the Washington Times article MegaDude originally posted is true! The silence is deafening!

growedup

49

FLAT TAX

by Yerusalyim in

jw
friends

the taxes filed thread got me to thinking....what say we here in the us go to a flat tax....18% for those who make over $35,000 a year...no deductions.

hmmmmm?

imallgrowedup

Six,

Now I really don't know what your point is, imallgrowedup. You seem to be agreeing with rem now

No, what I am saying is that I don't agree with the notion that Corporations don't pay taxes! Here is what Rem said:

Corporations don't pay taxes, consumers do.

You will note that the post I made which you originally called me on was in reference to Rem's comment regarding corporations not paying taxes. Here is what I wrote:

Rem is right about Corporations not paying tax.
I beg to differ on this. I own my own corporation and I most definitely paid taxes last year! Anyone who tries to convince the public that corporations do not pay taxes is disseminating false information at best.

When I first read Rem's comment cited above, I believed he was definitively saying that Corporations do not pay taxes (period) and that his comment was another example of what I encountered with the petition-wielding kids as outlined below:

The reason I am so on top of my soapbox about this is because not too long ago, I was approached by some hired-off-the-street kids who wanted me to sign a petition to "force Corporations to pay taxes". Obviously, because I have my own corporation, and I had written out my tax check just days before, I couldn't believe what my ears were hearing! I asked these students to explain what they meant, and they told me, "In California, Corporations don't pay any taxes. Only the citizens do." Their tone of voice spoke volumes over the actual words they were saying. They were quite indignant in their belief that Corporations in California could be so cold and calculating as to live off the backs of hardworking taxpayers.

Because this scenario is by no means isolated, and I know there are millions of people who honestly believe that Corporations/Businesses do not pay taxes in this country - I believed Rem was one of those millions of people... Until he qualified this statement which did not appear until after the post I made which "bugged" you. Even though I then realized that Rem did not believe that corporations do not pay taxes, because I am so passionate about others knowing the real truth about corporate taxes, I decided to go ahead and make my point anyway, in case anyone else was confused.

Additionally, when I wrote this:

To say the least, this ticked me off, not only because they believed this line of bull, but because someone intentionally planted that erroneous idea in their young minds and told them to say exactly that in order to gather more signatures! Had they actually read the petition, they would have realized it was to raise Corporate taxes in the State of California! My first point in all of this, is there is a very real component of American society that actually believes that Corporations/businesses do not pay taxes, and there are some politicians out there who like the fact that they can dupe some into actually believing it so they can try to pass legislation to tax them even further! I want the record set straight here!

I wanted to make it clear that the source of this confusion is the politicians who would love to see Corporations taxed to just this side of bankruptcy. It is a deliberate attempt on the part of these politicians to disseminate false information, and I wanted to make sure people were aware of this so that they could not be fooled into believing it is true.

Here is the post Rem made after my first post regarding corporate taxation:

Of course I realize that corporations are charged taxes, but that doesn't mean that your corporation is actually paying them. Depending on the size of your corporation, either you personally or your customers are actually paying the tax. Larger corporations definitely move the tax burden off to their customers, which means you as a consumer are paying a hidden tax because prices are higher than they would be without taxing the corporation.
I'm not sure if it would all even out in a different way if corporations weren't taxed, but I do think it is a sneaky way of taxation.

I disagree with the two statements highlighted above, and also addressed them in my last post.

I disagree with the first statement because taxes are a part of doing business. We do not write a separate check to the IRS on behalf of the company whose product or service we are buying, nor will we see a separate listing on a receipt for "Corporate and/or Payroll tax". Some will argue that this is why it is called a "hidden tax". I say that it is not a hidden tax - it is a cost of doing business and that by virtue of giving our money to a vendor, we are allowing that company to use the money in any way they please, including to pay their taxes. Let's put this in "closer-to-home" terms. Because we are in effect, "charging" our employer for our services, (just as a company charges their customer for goods or services), we, as individuals, are independent "micro companies". This means that our employers who pay us for the services we provide them are also our "customers". Yes, our "customers" (aka: employers) take taxes out of our checks to pay taxes for us, just like we pay sales taxes, etc. to a corporation for their goods and services to pay their sales taxes. We see these taxes listed on our paychecks, just as we see any taxes we pay to a corporation for their goods or services listed on our receipts. However, if at the end of the year you still owed taxes, and you used the money your employer (aka: customer) gave you to pay those taxes, would your employer be paying "hidden taxes"? Of course not because YOU owe the bill - not your employer (aka: customer). Additionally, your employer (aka: customer) knows that once they give you money for the services you have provided them, you will use that money to meet your costs of living (aka: costs of doing business), which may include additional taxes! This point provides a perfect segue into my objection of the next statment Rem made which says that he thinks that because corporations must pay taxes, and we must pay higher prices because they are taxed, the government is being sneaky. If this were true, than any of us who use any money provided to us by our employer (aka: customer) to pay a tax bill would also be guilty of "hiding taxes" and "finding a sneaky way" to raise money for our tax bills. Therefore, my second point was:

passing our tax burdens along to others, whether we are a Corporation, business, or an individual, is a necessity in the American economic system, and it simply can not be avoided.

I hope this makes better sense.

growedup

49

FLAT TAX

by Yerusalyim in

jw
friends

the taxes filed thread got me to thinking....what say we here in the us go to a flat tax....18% for those who make over $35,000 a year...no deductions.

hmmmmm?

imallgrowedup

SixofNine -

imallgrowedup, I gotta say, it bugs me that rem made an intelligent, honest point, and you didn't even seem to try to understand what that point was.

You know, Six, if I didn't know better, I would think that you are making the assumption that not only have I chosen to not intellectually consider Rem's post, but that I also lack the brain cells in order to do so. However, I know that you are much too *clearing throat* respectful *clearing throat again* of others on this board to imply something so rude. So, just in case there is any confusion, I want to make it perfectly clear that if, in the unlikely event you actually were implying the above, you would be categorically incorrect on both accounts. First of all, my post had nothing to do with Rem, whom, by the way, I have a great deal of respect for. However, my post had everything to do with the erroneous assumption by many that corporations - or any type of business for that matter - do not pay taxes and that consumers carry all tax burdens for this great nation of ours. Yes, it is true that most corporations/businesses pass their tax obligations on to their consumers. But one must remember that taxes are just one of several costs of doing business, just as office supplies are a cost of doing business. Corporations/businesses can not stay in business unless they set their prices high enough to cover their own expenses, and have enough left over as a profit. In fact, The Average Joe lives and dies by the same rules, although it is packaged differently. For example, how many of us can stay afloat if we are not "selling" our sweat to the highest bidder who will give us a paycheck in return so we can cover our own expenses - including our taxes? How many of us can actually save money, buy a home, or improve our home unless we can cover our expenses and have "profit" left over? No one. But here is the difference. A Corporation pays taxes whether they pass their tax bills along to the consumer or not. In fact, even if a Corporation loses money, they still have to pay what is called a "Corporation Tax" (at least in California) even if they end up in the red at the end of the year. But a consumer stops paying taxes once their income falls below a certain level. It is not that way with a Business/Corporation unless they actually go out of business or just close their doors and run, because any write-offs a Corporation/Business may incur prior to the sale of the business must be "made up" at the sale of the business. I know that for a fact because my husband and I got socked with a $25k tax bill one year after my husband sold his business for the same amount of money that he actually put into it. In other words, even though he broke even after being in business for five years, and he never drew a salary the whole time he was in business, (his ex-wife had a job outside of the business), we still owed the taxes for things he had already written off when he owned the business. (The ex got all the tax advantages, and poor pitiful me got the tax liabilities!)

The reason I am so on top of my soapbox about this is because not too long ago, I was approached by some hired-off-the-street kids who wanted me to sign a petition to "force Corporations to pay taxes". Obviously, because I have my own corporation, and I had written out my tax check just days before, I couldn't believe what my ears were hearing! I asked these students to explain what they meant, and they told me, "In California, Corporations don't pay any taxes. Only the citizens do." Their tone of voice spoke volumes over the actual words they were saying. They were quite indignant in their belief that Corporations in California could be so cold and calculating as to live off the backs of hardworking taxpayers. To say the least, this ticked me off, not only because they believed this line of bull, but because someone intentionally planted that erroneous idea in their young minds and told them to say exactly that in order to gather more signatures! Had they actually read the petition, they would have realized it was to raise Corporate taxes in the State of California! My first point in all of this, is there is a very real component of American society that actually believes that Corporations/businesses do not pay taxes, and there are some politicians out there who like the fact that they can dupe some into actually believing it so they can try to pass legislation to tax them even further! I want the record set straight here!

My second point is that the fact of the matter is that anyone who is an employee is also their own "micro company." You know that you must "charge" your employer a certain amount for your labor in order to cover your expenses, which include your taxes. If Corporations are guilty of passing their tax burdens onto the unsuspecting American public, but could go under if they didn't, then employees are also guilty of passing their own tax burdens onto their employer and could go under if they didn't. I am not trying to cite a "kettle and a pot" defense here. What I am trying to say is that passing our tax burdens along to others, whether we are a Corporation, business, or an individual, is a necessity in the American economic system, and it simply can not be avoided. As individuals, we are no less guilty than the Corporations and Businesses many point their finger at.

That, Six, is what I was trying to say. If I were rude, I would say something along the lines of how much it bugs me that it seems as if you didn't try to take the time to understand what I was trying to say. But I don't say things like that to others; it doesn't go over very well. I'm sure you can agree.

growedup

49

FLAT TAX

by Yerusalyim in

jw
friends

the taxes filed thread got me to thinking....what say we here in the us go to a flat tax....18% for those who make over $35,000 a year...no deductions.

hmmmmm?

imallgrowedup

Rem is right about Corporations not paying tax.

I beg to differ on this. I own my own corporation and I most definitely paid taxes last year! Anyone who tries to convince the public that corporations do not pay taxes is disseminating false information at best.

growedup