Walk downtown, go shopping, go to a cafe. That would be a nice alternative to the meeting.
If stay indoors, I would suggest Twitter, but be careful cause it's addictive :)
Posts by Syme
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53I am free!!! What Shall I do on this Meeting Night?
by KateWild inso i am at a loose end tonight.
i am not going to the meeting and sitting on the back row looking repentant no way!.
here are some options... care to add some if you wish, help me to decide.. 1. go to the meeting and sit in the middle, reading "einstein and religion" paperback, go in early and stay after the prayer.
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5
"I don't want to be here when that happens"
by Syme ini recall a memory from a circuit assembly almost a year ago and wanted to share it with you.. .
i had already been in serious doubt (about everything, not only the wts) for over a year, yet at that period of time i conducted 2 bible studies, with some nice young fellows.
at that circuit assembly, on sunday, both studies came: one sat on my left, the other on my right.
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Syme
I recall a memory from a circuit assembly almost a year ago and wanted to share it with you.
I had already been in serious doubt (about everything, not only the wts) for over a year, yet at that period of time I conducted 2 bible studies, with some nice young fellows. At that circuit assembly, on Sunday, both studies came: one sat on my left, the other on my right. Yup, it was an “upbuilding” experience, and for a moment I thought “Hey, that’s not too bad, why worry you, you doubtful sinner?” So here I am listening to the main speech, the Public Talk by the district overseer. A man over 70, the oldest travelling overseer in my country, very respectable, but nonetheless really old-style. So he starts repeating again the thousand-times-said “evidence” that the Great tribulation is near, and the need for increased vigilance, etc.
At that moment exactly, I had a flash, a moment of clarity, like when you see the past and the (possible) future in one scene: I imagined this man, who is a travelling overseer from the 70’s or earlier, having said SO many times that Armageddon is right before the corner this time, and I imagined myself, in 20 years from now, being 50 and listening to a 2033 district overseer saying something like: “the Great Tribulation has ALREADY started, and now it is time to flee to the mountains and follow the special instructions etc. etc.” I almost got the shivers; the thought I made that exact moment was: “I don’t want to be here when that happens”. Suddenly, the 2 bible studies that stood next to me meant nothing, and I felt a complete stranger amongst the Absurd.
This was not my moment of “awakening” (that was earlier), but nonetheless it was a strong moment. I am pretty certain now that in a few years the WTS, in order to regain moment, will again start to elaborate on a new date (indirectly, of course), or even worse, it will state that the Great tribulation has already started in a sort, even if the ‘infidels’ do not acknowledge it, and as a result they will push the R&F to act in a more frivolous way than ever before. This may be like the last “spark” of a dying man before he passes away.
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75
I told the elders that I would take blood and donate blood
by Daniel1555 ini found it important to be honest with my wife.
so i told her about my conscience decision that in a medical urgency i want blodless medicine but if a transfusion of blood or the 4 prohibited components is necessary to save my life or health i would accept it.
this would apply especially also for our child (that is not such a problem as in our country the wts recommends to comply with doctors as they have the right to decide concerning minors).. i showed her the reasons why i came to that conscience decision (biblical and logical reasons) and that jehovah and jesus do not like anyone to die because of this wrong bible application.. .
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Syme
Daniel, be careful!
Jwfacts made some very solid points.
Not wanting to abstain from blood may not be a DF cause, but not accepting the slave's teachings is. You could be charged with apostasy if, in front of 2 persons you admit, and insist, you disagree with a basic WTS teaching, regardless if you share it with others or not.
Of course you do well not to be scared with 2-elders discussions, but bear in mind that the basic reason for the "2 elders" rule is so that they have the "2 witnesses" available for judicial action, in case something comes up. If you want to have an in-depth, honest discussion regarding matters of belief and doubt, do it with only 1 person.
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China Number One Already?
by metatron inhttp://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-11-26/chart-day-how-five-short-years-breakneck-liquification-china-humiliated-worlds-centr.
this chart surprized me!
the chinese are racing towards economic domination.. .
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Syme
It is common ground that China will be probably be the world's only remaining superpower in the 21st century. (we're still at the beginning)
On the other hand, since the 2012 convention, the WTS has stated that the big A will start in the Anglo-american's superpower time.
Could that pose a problem for the wts??
No way! Just a little Orwellian changing of past statements, just a little "better understanding" of the prophecy, and all will be ok, and everyone will be happy! Sure they'll come up with something. For instance, when China becomes the primal world superpower, the WTS could say "Well, China may have become a superpower, but the US is STILL a superpower" and stuff like that. (that will be hard to convince if the US is wrecked by then)
Anyway, history moves at slower speeds than man does, so we have to be patient.
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53
Who wants to live forever?
by Doug Mason inwhat will living be like after 5 billion years?.
doug.
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Syme
Let me tell you how it is to live for some 5 billion years:
The Sun, coming to the end of its life, will continue to gain volume, like a baloon, and it will literally consume the Earth before blowing off to a supernova. The other possibility is it will start to shrink until it becomes a white dwarf. Again, all life on Earth will cease because of zero temperatures.
The universe itself will eventually die, either by collapsing, smashing everything in a singularity, or by continuing expanding until all stars are dead, ending in a completely void, cold non-universe.
AND YOU WANT TO LIVE FOREVER.
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62
Ok, now I know why you atheists get so spittin' mad at some believers.
by Julia Orwell incuz they feel like they're banging their heads against a wall.. i don't really fall into the category of atheist or believer, but i'll go where the facts lead me.
that generally leads to atheism, and is why atheists end up getting mad and therefore rude at believers: they will lay out facts, raise questions, play devil's advocate, and reason in an evidence-based, structured way.
i've seen it many times before on this forum.
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Syme
Julia Orwell +1000
I've been having those kinds of conversations with some of my closest (and trustful) jw friends, as well with my parents.
My conclusion is this: most people in general (at least in an under-educated society) lack the ability of critical thinking. I don't mean it's genetical. One can obtain critical thinking by going to the universtity or even by reading a lot by themselves. However, lack of critical thinking + average jw = lack of critical thinking ^ 2. One who has critical thinking, or at least tries to, is much easier to talk to and pose arguments. My jw friends that I CAN discuss those things with possess critical thinking up to a point, due to the fact that (a) they went to university and (b) they read TONS of books.
Not hard to see why the wts discourages (a) and (b) in particular.
As for the Neanderthals, yes they were a different species (although very close-related), plus they interbred a lot with Homo sapiens. Most with European ancestry for example, have an average of 2.7% of Neanderthal DNA in them. I know this is true for myself for sure, as I recently had my DNA sequenced, and yes it showed a 2.7% of Neanderhal DNA. Here's an anti-Bible evidence that flows inside our bodies! (hard to shake off that kind of evidence, huh?)
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Syme
[dazed : if humans where to evovle into something else would that not be super human?]
NO. Evotution is a BLIND, NATURAL, IMPERSONAL process. It does not have a goal in mind! Evolution does not progress towards "superior" humans or chimps or whatever. It does not progress towards inferior humans either. It is just a natural-occuring adaptation to changing environments.
There are many books out there that can help you understand the basic natural laws that shape life on Earth, and clear up any popular misconceptions about evolution.
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5
So you really want to join Bethel?
by bats in the belfry in.
part of the questions being asked you would think you are subscribing to a life insurance policy.. .. .. .
.. .. .
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Syme
Those questions about mental and emotional health seem ironical to say the least. Especially if you count the huge amounts of antidepressants that pass the gate of a typical Bethel every week. How can be that there are so high health standards and at the same time half of all Bethelites and travelling overseers (and wives) sustain themselves on drugs?
One can assume that one is lying when completing the form, but I believe this is not true in most cases.
So the other possibility is that one indeed has excellent emotional health when entering the Full-time Order, and the problems begin only after some time IN the service...
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5
Jehovahs Witnesses and Communist Parties similarities
by Syme inas an example i will use the existing communist party in my country.
the cp of my country is generally viewed as a rigid, stalinist party (one of the few remaining in the world), so it is a very suitable analogy.. the comparison will be as this: i will describe the characteristics of the cp and i will highlight in red letters the (in my opinion) characteristic that resembles the jw, although some characteristics are so similar, that this marking may seem unnecessary.... activity of members: every member of the cp is expected to read regularly the party literature, which includes one daily newspaper and one bimonthly magazine; not just read it though, but absorb it.
a party member is also expected to actively participate in party propaganda, which often includes (yes, youve guessed it) door-to-door activity!
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Syme
As an example I will use the existing Communist Party in my country. The CP of my country is generally viewed as a rigid, Stalinist party (one of the few remaining in the world), so it is a very suitable analogy.
The comparison will be as this: I will describe the characteristics of the CP and I will highlight in red letters the (in my opinion) characteristic that resembles the JW, although some characteristics are SO similar, that this marking may seem unnecessary…
Activity of members: Every member of the CP is expected to read regularly the Party literature, which includes one daily newspaper and one bimonthly magazine; not just “read” it though, but “absorb” it. A party member is also expected to actively participate in party propaganda, which often includes (yes, you’ve guessed it) door-to-door activity! Apart from the ‘official’ propaganda activities, each party member also does unofficial propaganda, i.e. in most occasions, a party member conversing with ‘non-believers’ will always try to convert them. But since communism in my country has been an ideology which has suffered severe prosecution for many decades (many communists and JWs were together in prison cells and exile), and as a result there is a lot of “prejudice”, a good party member will be careful to present “the good news” to a stranger in a clever way which is not always straightforward! Many outsiders avoid having chats on politics with a known CP member because they know that a CP member usually converses with an outsider in order only to recruit them!
The Newspeak: The CP, as most communist parties, uses a special vocabulary which is characteristic of that very party. Often, an informed outsider will know that a person is indeed a member (or fan) of the CP just by listening to the very phrases they speak.
Gaining and regaining member status: One can become a member of the CP only after a trial period which includes appropriate indoctrination by experienced Party members (who are sometimes called "instructors"), in which someone shows if, and how much, they have absorbed the teachings of the Marxist ‘truth’ and are ‘qualified’ to be part of the CP. Once they’re admitted, though, then does the hard part begin. (“Baptism is not the end, but the beginning”) The abovementioned activity requirements are not overstated: if a member is not so whole-hearted in his cause, it is quite possible that they will be ‘counseled’. However, the gravest mistake a CP member can make, is raising a voice (verbally or worse, in writing) that is not in FULL compliance to the Party line. This often occurs as a result of what Orwell called a “thought crime”, i.e. independent thinking, which may result in questioning the political infallibility of the Party. If, now, a member commits the “thought crime”, especially if they express it, they can be safely regarded as “done”. The usual procedure is this: one first loses the prospect of advancing further and is being watched upon from that point on; then he loses gradually any official positions he may held, e.g. Central or regional Committee etc; a period of increasing alienation from the Party core follows, combined with further losses of any privileges left; the final step is deletion from the Party itself. This is usually combined with a form of Orwellian “vaporization”: the former member’s achievements and contributions to the cause are wiped off the Party’s collective memory, or heavily downplayed in the least; he is officially stigmatized as an ‘apostate’, and if, for instance, he happens to die while being an ex-member, in his obituary in the Party newspaper, if there happens to be one, emphasis will be placed to his ‘downfall’ from the ideological Truth, and his succumbing to the ‘dark side’ of revisionism, or “opportunism”, as it is usually called.
One, however, can regain the Party member status, but with some very interesting prerequisites: At least 6 months will have to pass since his deletion, and his case will be dealt with by an officially appointed reinstatement committee, which will converse with them and decide if they have indeed turned down their “wrong” views and have sincerely embraced once again the Party’s teachings. The most important factor in regaining membership is, therefore, complete and utter repentance and renewed submission to the Party line.
Leadership: ‘Officially’, the CP operates on the principles of democratic centralism, which dictates that once a Party decision/resolution has been taken via democratic procedures (voting in Party Conferences), everyone in the Party is obliged to stick firmly to this decision and not question it under any circumstances, until the next Conference takes place. The same applies in electing new Party leadership: in every Conference, delegates (who are elected by regional bodies) elect the new Central Committee (CC) and the Party’s General Secretary (GS). In practice, only the latter part of this democratic centralism principle applies, i.e. the centralism part. That is because when a Conference is due to be held, the decisions are always presented the day before as “suggestions” by the current CC, and it usually is pretty certain that the vast majority of the delegates will vote for the exact decisions/resolutions that the CC has already made! The same applies for the new leadership: the old guard suggests which members should be elected in the new guard (most willl remain in post) and which member should be elected as GS, so in fact it is more of an appointment than an election. For example, in the last Conference held by the CP, a new GS -suggested by the previous leadership- was elected with a majority of over 97%. This reminds of the Soviet era, when State officials were always elected by the people in a majority of about 99% (due to the fact that there was only one candidate for each post, ‘suggested’ by the Party.)
So it may seem that the Central Committee is the Governing Body analogy. But not quite: once a new CC is elected, it appoints a “central committee-within-a central committee”, which is called Politburo. While the CC may consist of around 80 persons, the Politburo is usually constrained to 10-12 members only. The Politburo is in fact the all-powerful body in the Party, the body which outlines the Party policy.
Another characteristic with respect to leadership is the “ban on factions”. While typically, every member is free to express their views, especially in a pre-Conference period, these views should not be really different from the Party line; factions within the Party are of course forbidden. However, as mentioned above, not only factions, but every voice that is even slightly different will be ‘dealt with’. The result is a complete uniformity in thought and action, which has some understandable advantages: while policies of the other parties may be constantly changing (which makes people mock them), the CP is known to have a firm, consistent ideology that is stable through time. This characteristic of the CP makes many people respect it, even though they wouldn’t vote for it. (Well, here is a striking difference with the JW: stability and slow -if at all- changing of policy) However, if and when a change indeed comes, every member must be quick to adapt it. (Back to similarities )
Eschatology: Yes, the CP has a clear eschatology at its core: the coming of the communist stateless society, which is very similar to our Paradise on earth. For this to come though, sacrifices must be made, which include the complete members’ devotion to the cause. And as a great part of the history of the USSR showed, in order to establish paradise on earth, one must go through an earthly hell first.
The reason I posted this comparison is because I had it forming in my mind for some time now. It is not a scholarly study, just some organized thoughts. It seems to me that analogies to the JW structure can be found in this particular ideology and practice, which is very good in its principle. (Who doesn’t want an equal society where no one exploits anyone? Only someone who currently exploits.) However, the means to reach such a goal usually are so severe, that after many years one has effectively lost the goal, and now fights only for keeping alive an unnatural construct. A totalitarian structure thus occurs, and totalitarian structures, regardless of their honorable roots, have only one practical goal: sustainment of power and control, by all means. In order to keep reaching the remote future Utopia, one must suffer the very real present Dystopia.
The future of the CP is clouded: many people in my country believe that if it continues in its Orwellian, inflexible practices, it will shrink further and finally dissolve. Many with similar ideology though, wouldn’t like to see this historic party dissolving, but rather evolving to something better, and more humane. Time, as with everything else, will show…
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33
First Post - Introduction
by Syme inthis is my first post on jwn, and i would like to take a few lines to introduce myself.. i currently am still in the organization, though my conviction in the last 1-2 years is more or less agnostic/atheist (closer to atheist).
i am an ex-elder and mts graduate, having served in another 3 congregations, apart from my home one.. the reason for the above-mentioned conviction shift has to do with science and rational, logical thinking generally, and with the grand theory of evolution, specifically.
it took me long, endless sessions of hard reading and study of serious scientific literature (plus cross-matching all the quotes and claims in jw evolution-related literature), to finally make the shift from utterly firm religious belief to doubt, and then to lack of religious faith.
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Syme
Thanks again all of you!
I posted some of my thoughts on Creator & Bible on the nearby thread, a poll, started by minimus, named "Who here believe in God".
Something that "convinces me" are facts. And logical conclusions based upon the facts. Now, if those facts happen to contradict what I WOULD LIKE to be true... well, too bad. I think the whole (jw) theology is based on the hilarious notion that "I am extremely afraid of dying, ergo, death is not the end!" Or "If there is no resurrection, what's the point? Ergo, there is resurrection!" Wow, talk about logical reasoning.
Reality doesn't care if we are afraid of dying or whatever. I would like to be able to fly with real wings on my ribs. So what? Does my yearning make it possible?
As one writer in my country put it: "The Sun itself will eventually die. Who are we to think that we are more important than the Sun?"
As for my plans... well, I haven't sorted that out yet. "Circumstances do not allow me" right now to take more radical steps.
It says here that I have a restriction on starting new topics, so the post about JW and Comm. Parties will have to wait until tomorrow .
See you around!