Posts by Frank75

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

Frank75

Auldsoul: He said there would be an increase in the number of earthquakes.

Where does is say this?

Truthfully, it does not say this anywhere. The other term that is often debated is "Great Earthquakes" which is another supposed sign of "the time of the end". The bible refers to 2 "Great Earthquakes" which occurred after Jesus death. This and the symbolic use of "Great Earthquakes" in Revelation put the lie to the Adventist rhetoric that is often bantered about.

(Luke 21:11) 11 and there will be great earthquakes, and in one place after another. . .
(Acts 16:26) 26 Suddenly a great earthquake occurred, so that the foundations of the jail were shaken. Moreover, all the doors were instantly opened, and the bonds of all were loosened.
(Matthew 28:2) 2 And, notice! a great earthquake had taken place; for Jehovah’s angel had descended from heaven and approached and rolled away the stone, and was sitting on it.. . .

I will ask again from my post above. Why would a person who outspokenly pointed out that persons who where "seeking signs" are "wicked and adulterous" then turn around and give "signs" intended to attract such persons?

Matt 12:38: In reply he said to them: “A wicked and adulterous generation keeps on seeking for a sign, but no sign will be given it except the sign of Jo´nah the prophet.

Likewise, why would Jesus who warned against false prophets and teachers be snookered into using the most outspoken false prophet of our recent age as his exclusive spokesman?

How can people be grouped and classified as "faithful" when it so easy to demonstrate that they have been anything but? This can be done from their own literature. All anyone needs to do is look.

It is like arguing with someone about the holocaust. It would not be hard to debate the validity of survivor claims if it were not for the abundance of Nazi documentation that spells out everything they did in their own hand. Documented, dated, names, numbers the whole shooting match.

Similarly there are lots of religious leaders who have made arrogant claims and silly predictions. Later when they fail or proved false they can deny saying it or claim they were misquoted and taken out of context. However not so with the JW claims as such flip flopping doctrines, specific predictions as well as implied ones are to be found in their own publications. Yet these facts are swept aside and replaced with emotion filled rhetoric to draw a red herring into any discussion of the facts.

Frank75

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

Frank75

Foolish reasoning. Not what Jesus said. Jesus said people would be living their everyday lives as if nothing was happening. What you are looking for is world troubles so bad that no one can live a normal life. But thats not what Jesus said. All the many things Jesus predicted make up the one sign of his parousia. Even you and your friends saying, "Where is the promised presence of his. Why, all thing are continuing....."

The above comment is disingenuous at best. Thirdwitness knows full well that what Jesus said is not relevant to what JW’s teach. What is relevant to the JW is what the Watchtower says that Jesus said. This is evident in what Jesus said in Luke 21:8 and that when it is brought up to a JW’s they usually want to run and hide from it.

“ He said: “Look out that YOU are not misled; for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am he,’ and, ‘The due time has approached.’ Do not go after them.”

What does the JW leadership claim if it is not that “I am he” and certainly as the summer assembly theme thrust the JW belief to the fore that “the due time has approached”?

What you are looking for is world troubles so bad that no one can live a normal life.

No, that is what you witnesses are looking for. Those of us who believe in the bible expect that the end will come as a thief. Exactly as Jesus said it would when he was earlier pushed to give a sign. He said there in Matt 12:38:

In reply he said to them: “A wicked and adulterous generation keeps on seeking for a sign, but no sign will be given it except the sign of Jo´nah the prophet.

That sign was Jesus death and resurrection. That is the only sign Jesus gave and he mentioned why. Namely that he considered persons who look for signs to be “wicked and adulterous”. If that is so and it appears to be plainly stated, then why would he go to the trouble to enunciate visible signs to attract such “wicked and adulterous” persons into his so-called “paradise kingdom”?

That is why honest students of the bible take Jesus words in Matt 24 and Luke 21 at face value. The only sign given was his “coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory”. In that case it would sadly be too late for the sign seekers.

No advance warning would be given just as it was “in the days of Noah”. This fact always escapes people like JW’s because they simply don’t read the bible contextually. This is shown up time and time again by AlanF’s masterful exposé’s of the erroneous gentile times doctrine as well as the patently dishonest translation techniques employed by their Oracle Fred Franz.

JW’s and others maintain that Noah preached audibly (distributing tracts, brochures and leaflets perhaps) because of what Peter said. I submit that the preaching that Peter noted in 2 Pet 2:5 was simply the testimony of his faith visible through his action of building the vessel. The same testimony given by disciples of Jesus (Matt 5:16) Proof of Peter’s thinking is found in his admonition to wives in 1 Pet 3:1, 2

Such a global "preaching work" would take considerable resources for the people charged with constructing this vessel. Likewise preaching in the sense of JW’s and other modern disciplers would imply that there was hope for the wicked if Noah could warn them enough, perhaps even "studying with them" to come into the

However this is not what God told Noah. The account says:

And I do establish my covenant with you; and you must go into the ark, you and your sons and your wife and your sons’ wives with you… ..

Then:

“Go, you and all your household, into the ark, because you are the one I have seen to be righteous before me among this generation

Next he mentions the animals. Nowhere does he mention that “others” would be invited or even permitted into the Ark. They had all been pre-qualified or excluded from the salvation offered to Noah and his immediate family. No doubt there may have been mercy shown to individuals who came forward. However that did not happen at least as far as the account of Noah is concerned.

Mal 3:18 And YOU people will again certainly see [the distinction] between a righteous one and a wicked one, between one serving God and one who has not served him.”

Therefore it makes more sense to conclude that this aspect of Noah’s day was what Jesus was referring to rather than the exegetical and theological “organizational” arguments of cults like the JW’s. Namely “the chosen ones” who are in a “covenant” with Christ (see Isa 54:9 then the context) would need to keep their wits about them always to avoid being led astray by “wicked and adulterous” sign seekers who would pop out of the woodwork every time something disastrous happened.

Frank75

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

Frank75

Sorry one of my quotations evaporated somehow:

Apostasy.
Apostasy is a standing away from, a falling away, defection, rebellion, abandonment; it involves teaching false doctrines, supporting or promoting false religion and its holidays or interfaith activities. (Deut. 13:13, 15; Josh.22:22, ftn.; Acts 21:21, ftn.; 2 Cor. 6:14, 15, 17, 18;
2. John 7, 9, 10; Rev. 18:4) … Persons who deliberately spread (stubbornly hold to and speak about) teachings contrary to Bible truth as taught by Jehovah's Witnesses are apostates.

Frank75

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

Frank75

Hi, Frank75! In this thread, thirdwitness has already directly disagreed in public with at least two doctrines of Jehovah's Witnesses.

I have noticed that is not the only thing. His (their) merely being here and engaging in this forum topic with known apostates (JW standard) is reason for being df’d himself. Incentive indeed for the JW to keep his identity hidden, but would actually be the best thing for him (them) if they came out in the open.

Let the cards fall where they may! They are persons of faith are they not?

It continues to say…..

They need to join this forum to post, which includes person of many persuasions religiously and otherwise (very otherwise in some cases). Arguably thirdwitness has indeed taken up association with all who are here , like it or not. When he gets up on his soapbox it is no different than if he was visiting a local church to defend his beliefs from their pulpit. Either way he should be DF’d as a result the JW definition under apostasy in the KS book.

Then there is this hogwash

*** w86 4/1 p. 31 Questions From Readers ***
Approved association with Jehovah’s Witnesses requires accepting the entire range of the true teachings of the Bible, including those Scriptural beliefs that are unique to Jehovah’s Witnesses. What do such beliefs include?
That the great issue before humankind is the rightfulness of Jehovah’s sovereignty, which is why he has allowed wickedness so long. (Ezekiel 25:17) That Jesus Christ had a prehuman existence and is subordinate to his heavenly Father. (John 14:28) That there is a “faithful and discreet slave” upon earth today ‘entrusted with all of Jesus’ earthly interests,’ which slave is associated with the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses. (Matthew 24:45-47) That 1914 marked the end of the Gentile Times and the establishment of the . (Luke 21:7-24; Revelation 11:15–12:10) That only 144,000 Christians will receive the heavenly reward. (Revelation 14:1, 3) That Armageddon, referring to the battle of the great day of God the Almighty, is near. (Revelation 16:14, 16; 19:11-21) That it will be followed by Christ’s Millennial Reign, which will restore an earth-wide paradise. That the first to enjoy it will be the present “great crowd” of Jesus’ “other sheep.”—John 10:16; Revelation 7:9-17; 21:3, 4. Do we have Scriptural precedent for taking such a strict position? Indeed we do! Paul wrote about some in his day: “Their word will spread like gangrene. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of that number. These very men have deviated from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already occurred; and they are subverting the faith of some.” (2 Timothy 2:17, 18; see also Matthew 18:6.) There is nothing to indicate that these men did not believe in God, in the Bible, in Jesus’ sacrifice. Yet, on this one basic point, what they were teaching as to the time of the resurrection, Paul rightly branded them as apostates, with whom faithful Christians would not fellowship.

I especially like the justification in the final part of the diatribe above about Hymeneaus and Philetus. Paul said they had deviated from the truth by preaching that the resurrection has already occurred. Now how can any JW honestly read that and not wonder about the JW religion itself being a modern Hymenaeus? Why it’s official teaching on the resurrection is that it “has already occurred” after the fabled kingdoms establishment in 1914 ( w87 1/15 p. 19) to all of the saints and then to those anointed left on earth who received a “spiritual resurrection” in 1919 ( re chap. 30 p. 209)

Isn't it interesting that the Bible is missing from the list the Watchtower provided of sources of spiritual food?

Yes it is all quite fascinating really. I have also thoroughly enjoyed your posts here and so far consider you a kindred spirit. Perhaps our experiences are very similar.

Frank75

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

Frank75

Hi all! I am new to this thread and have lurked here for a bit.

I am quite amazed at the tenacity of thirdwitness, and some of the other JW apologists. It is hard to believe that there are others as stubborn as I was!

When I felt all alone in the congregation back in the 90's, watching the elders dominate the friends, the quackery coming out of their mouths on the platform, the backstabbing gossip, the cliques, the under current of doubt, the lack of faith, love and confidence in the bible, I found friendship and an escape in the debating done online. It was invigorating and a lot more satisfying than handing out magazines to my neighbors or the long lines at the coffee shop.

Places like JWD such as H2O (remember those days AlanF?) I could express views openly, even divergent views from the Watchtower, without reprisals, or being hauled into the library for a star chamber intervention. I was not happy, and neither was my wife who had suffered severe depression for almost all of our married life. This despite that we were both active, regular pioneers, faithful meeting “attenders” and moved in all of the right circles. I just didn't get it.

I knew something was wrong in the Watchtower, but being raised in it gave us very little perspective and I just coudn't put my finger on it. I had invested so much of my life, intellect, time and energy into the religion, I just could not bring myself around to see that it was the religion that was the cause of my unhappiness, my wife’s depression and that of almost everyone else in the witness community that I knew. (Spanish and English)

My wife’s depression ended the day we left the JW’s, and frankly I have never been so at peace myself. You JW’s know the truth in your hearts that it is only a handful of JW’s in each congregation that are not heavily medicated or else outright delusional lunatics anyway. Like the old sister in our hall who used to fill up plastic jugs with “holy water” from the fountain at the hall to afraid to drink from the water pipes coming from “Satan’s system”, among others.

Like thirdwitness I was proud to defend the Watchtower, I had to as they were my master (Rom 6:12). Most of what I wrote, I did so out of duty and fear just like he (they, as at times he seems to have different writing styles) does.

I don’t know if the question has already been raised, but why doesn’t he reveal himself? If he is “in the truth” and is speaking the truth, what does he have to fear by coming out from behind the curtain of anonymity? Alan has, so has Frank Toth and a host of others. Likewise I have no qualms about identifying who I am.

The truth is that JW’s don’t have the ability to express themselves openly. thirdwitness knows that if he reveals who he/she/they are that they will be found out and likely thrown out.

So let’s have it. Let’s see who all of you JW apologists really are. If you truly believe that Jesus is directing your religion then you know he knows already who you are. You also know that if he is directing your religion and the elders are in his “right hand of control” then they will do no harm to you as you are advancing the cause of truth here. Aren’t you?

Let’s have it before the thread gets much longer:

Name:

Congregation(if still JW):

Capacity served (if still JW):

Status (come on tell us why you are really here, are you df'd or some other JW restriction?)

601

For those not sick to death of talking about this...607 BCE

by Swamboozled in

just got this link sent to me by my sister in law and i just keeping staring at it trying to decide where to start.

i know that arguing with a jw is like throwing miracle wheat in the wind...but i want a comeback!!!

http://www.2001translation.com/587_or_607.htm

Frank75

Alan:

I see that you are still duking it out on this 607 thing. Keep up the good work. Hopefully you will knock a few who are here only because of the lack of love in abusive religious movements like the JW's to their senses. They are here because they don't fit in with the other JW's in their community. They are all alone, weighed down and undersexed (thought I would throw that in). Here they can breath and exercise their insights outside of the controlling eyes of their elders and congregation snitches.

I still use and quote your rebuttal of the 607 dating to help any JW's who are honest enough to realize the WT has lied about practically everything they have ever written.

There are lots of good people in the dubs. We need to help them get out and on with their lives. Showing the 607-1914 chronology for what it is is like drawing back the curtain in the Wizard of Oz to expose the fraud pretending to be the Wizard (FDS).

http://corior.blogspot.com/2006/02/refutation-of-appendix-in-let-your.html

FRANK

601

For those not sick to death of talking about this...607 BCE

by Swamboozled in

just got this link sent to me by my sister in law and i just keeping staring at it trying to decide where to start.

i know that arguing with a jw is like throwing miracle wheat in the wind...but i want a comeback!!!

http://www.2001translation.com/587_or_607.htm

Frank75

Alan

601

For those not sick to death of talking about this...607 BCE

by Swamboozled in

just got this link sent to me by my sister in law and i just keeping staring at it trying to decide where to start.

i know that arguing with a jw is like throwing miracle wheat in the wind...but i want a comeback!!!

http://www.2001translation.com/587_or_607.htm

Frank75

Alan

5

"Wisdom is proved righteous by all its children"

by Frank75 in

there are many commendable things wrapped up in the witness ideal.

this is hard to dispute and is obviously what attracts people to it and did so many of us.

but just as the luster of something that we bought fades or tarnishes over time, so have the very things that may have attracted us in the first place.

Frank75

Thanks for the comments. And sorry for the "commendable" jargon....was it really that common? I recall very little "commendation" myself.

Now, can anyone tell me what I am doing wrong? I have had trouble with the last few posts. It seems whole sentences and key words are dropping into cyberspace when I submit the post!

What am doing wrong? Help!

Frank

5

"Wisdom is proved righteous by all its children"

by Frank75 in

there are many commendable things wrapped up in the witness ideal.

this is hard to dispute and is obviously what attracts people to it and did so many of us.

but just as the luster of something that we bought fades or tarnishes over time, so have the very things that may have attracted us in the first place.

Frank75

There are many commendable things wrapped up in the Witness ideal. This is hard to dispute and is obviously what attracts people to it and did so many of us. But just as the luster of something that we bought fades or tarnishes over time, so have the very things that may have attracted us in the first place.

Family and moral values are a key feature that attracted me. In time though it became clear that Witness families enjoy no better marriages than most fundamentalist groups, arguably the world in general, maybe even worse. Moral superiority is merely an illusion framed by propaganda and rhetoric. Witnesses are involved in the same moral malaise that exists in other religious groups as well as the general population. Although, for good reason, such frank statistics are not made available in the WT publications. However, to any who are honestly looking at those around them, this woefully apparent.

A clear concept of what is right and wrong, black and white, likewise attracts many, myself included. Who wants to wade through the facts, examples, parables and principles to acquire a sense of right and wrong (Heb

Brotherhood too, is what attracts. As unpopular as Communism is today, we must reflect on how refreshing its message was to millions who were oppressed by class and poverty. A cursory read of the “animal farm” will show the way any human, political or religious ideal will decay into corruption, self interest and greed leading full circle back to the very thing that it rose up to put down. One article in the WT past two years, pointedly said “Jehovah’s witnesses are a classless society”. (It hardly escaped notice that the unintended pun came through to the reader LOL) If that is so, then why are dedicated, baptized witnesses kept working in the trenches, but yet excluded from information, judicial, organizational and otherwise, which is provided to only a select few? All of Christ’s brothers are equal, except some are more equal than others. (Borrowed from Animal Farm) In the end the so-called brotherhood of the Witnesses proves to be an illusion and a pipe dream.

The continual self praise and self justification employed to prop up the witness community is very similar to what Paul dealt with in the city of . ( 2 Cor ,18) :

12 For we do not dare to class ourselves among some or compare ourselves with some who recommend themselves. Certainly they in measuring themselves by themselves and comparing themselves with themselves have no understanding…18 For not the one who recommends himself is approved, but the man whom God recommends.

Often what ensues on these boards and in the private homes (house to house NWT LOL) are useless debates over what is or isn’t stated clearly in scripture. God is the one who will judge us ultimately, as individuals and organizations. () What will be the basis of such judgment? It is my submission that HIS criteria is set out plainly in the gospel, and it is love…..”YOU must accordingly be perfect, as YOUR heavenly Father is perfect”. (Matt )

(Matthew 7:16-20) 16 By their fruits YOU will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they? 17 Likewise every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit; 18 a good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, neither can a rotten tree produce fine fruit. 19 Every tree not producing fine fruit gets cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Really, then, by their fruits YOU will recognize those [men].

Frank (not Ernest)