Posts by Gentledawn

74

Billy's Comments You Won't Hear at the 01-19-2014 WT Study (7 Shepherds, 8 Dukes)

by Billy the Ex-Bethelite in

16-20. we shall also have to raise up against him seven shepherds, yes, eight dukes of mankind.mic.

what is the most important thing that you can do now to prepare for any future attack on gods people?.

all of us must be ready to obey any instructions we may receive, whether these appear sound from a strategic or human standpoint or not.. .

Gentledawn

However, I could not close my eyes on yesterday's article after my elder friend raised a question on Par. 4 "no evidence that Jesus was addressed as Immanuel." We were just discussing things privately while the WT study was on going. He actually shared the same Q with our Service Overseer before the meetings but the latter said he would research the material further.My elder friend smilingly concluded there was something wrong with that sentence. For me, I thought it was unnecessary to insert it for there were cross references-verses that would just contradict the assertion.

Wow. Wish I could count how many times I heard that phrase : "lemme research that and get back to you" type-thing ... *time passes, only crickets chirping*. Nothing. Ask about it, and they either don't recall, change the subject, walk away, all of the above.

As far as the scripture in Matthew goes, Mary remained a virgin (a REAL, honest to goodness, hymen-in-place one, not a make believe Watchtower version) until after Jesus was born:

Matthew 1:20-25 (NIV)

20 But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”

22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: 23 “The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel” (which means “God with us”).

24 When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. 25 But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

---

On the other hand, Isaiah WROTE that he had sexual intercourse with his wife, and she in turn bore him a son:

Isaiah 8:1-4 (Living Bible)

8 Again the Lord sent me a message: “Make a large signboard and write on it the birth announcement of the son I am going to give you. Use capital letters! His name will be Maher-shalal-hash-baz, which means ‘Your enemies will soon be destroyed.’” 2 I asked Uriah the priest and Zechariah the son of Jeberechiah, both known as honest men, to watch me as I wrote so they could testify that I had written it before the child was even on the way. 3 Then I had sexual intercourse with my wife and she conceived and bore me a son. And the Lord said, “Call him Maher-shalal-hash-baz. 4 This name prophesies that within a couple of years, before this child is even old enough to say ‘Daddy’ or ‘Mommy,’ the king of Assyria will invade both Damascus and Samaria and carry away their riches.”

44

How would you answer these questions that came to me in an email through my website? ...

by AndersonsInfo in

jw
friends

many emails are sent to me through my website, watchtowerdocuments.com.

all are answered.

remember 1corinthians 6: 1-2 (i'll answer this question.

Gentledawn

Think Outlaw and few others nailed it: the guy wants you to do all the heavy lifting/research.

Is anyone else sorta creeped out about the way gender roles got framed in at least two of his questions?

4. "... as a woman..."

9. "As a man, ..."

Really? Why was it necessary to specify gender in either case?

7

What is wrong with this headline?

by adamah in

can anyone spot the basic problem with the question asked on the cover of la weekly, for an article on alien encounters?.

.

adam.

Gentledawn

"Even the most emphatic true believers can't prove aliens have come to earth - but can you prove they haven't?"

Proving a negative is like trying to pick up an entire mountain range and tossing it above your head, like a juggling act. The amount of information and legwork to research it is astounding.

On the other hand, it is NOT up to the person who is supposed to be persuaded of an idea to prove the other party's argument for them. The weight of the evidence is to be brought by the person who brings the idea/argument, in this case the people who believe in aliens need to prove their side.

Not sure if that's what the OP was going for, tho.

19

i finally had "the truth" talk with the hubby

by monis in

jw
friends

i have been inactive for a couple of years.

he has too, but wants to go back.

he has never researched anything about jws.

Gentledawn

The Guardian UK newspaper article, dated October 8th, 2001:

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/oct/08/religion.world

Jehovah's Witnesses link to UN queried
Sect accused of hypocrisy over association with organisation it has demonised.

The United Nations is being asked to investigate why it has granted associate status to the Jehovah's Witnesses, the fundamentalist US-based Christian sect, which regards it as the scarlet beast predicted in the Book of Revelation.

19

i finally had "the truth" talk with the hubby

by monis in

jw
friends

i have been inactive for a couple of years.

he has too, but wants to go back.

he has never researched anything about jws.

Gentledawn

Watchtower Society submitted an application to become a member of the United Nations as an N.G.O. in 1991. They were accepted in 1992. They remained a member of the U.N. until The Guardian newspaper in the UK printed an article in 2001/2002, exposing their membership. They resigned as a U.N. member a few days or so later.

Representatives of the WTS tried to spin it as needing access to the U.N. library, but membership is not required in order to access the library. They later tried to say it had been a mistake (or misstep) by a single person. Trouble with that excuse is that the U.N. membership requires renewal (and signature on the renewal) each and every year. It also requires member organizations to publish two articles a year that support/extoll the virtues of the United Nations and their respective works. November 1998 Awake! mag has a whole cheerful spread on the U.N. (remember it because it's the same month my mom died).

What is so significant about the years the Watchtower was a member? We were all huddling in book study groups on Tuesday/Thursday evenings, studying the "Revelation is at Hand!" book, which equates the U.N. as being part of the disgusting thing at the end times.

--------

Another UK article (came out this past summer): the trial and conviction of Gordon Leighton (child molester).

What's significant about his case?

- He was not Disfellowshipped for his crime of molesting/raping a young child. He was "reproved". He was DF'd a short time later for "violence".

- he confessed his crime to the elders before being taken to court. He was DF'd at the time of trial, and yet three elders stood by his side for three years, forcing the court through a lengthy fight in order to hear the man's confession. They claimed "clergy-laity privilege". Again, this was a disfellowshipped man, who committed the crimes in question.

After the confession was heard by the court, he was found guilty for all but one count against him (think it was 7 out of 8 charges).

Likewise, as far as the Conti case goes: The Watchtower Society excuses themselves from caring about children by asserting that if the child is not a baptised member, then the Watchtower and its underlings are not responsible for what happens to that child. At the end of the original trial, the Watchtower Society alone had a judgment against them : "(Watchtower Society) who alone acted with malice" (paraphrasing; there were 3 defendents, if mem serves: the molester; the congregation; the Watchtower itself)

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Research: "Theocratic Warfare/War Strategy". It's the term used when the leadership and immediate underlings give themselves permission to LIE, even about mundane crap.

32

Lies on the JW.org FAQ section

by EndofMysteries in

it's riddled with lies.

here are a few, "are you an american sect?

all of our teachings are based on the bible, not on the writings of some religious leader in the united states.1 thessalonians 2:13.. we follow jesus christ, not any human leader.matthew 23:8-10.. .

Gentledawn

If you miss attending meetings as a baptized member, they WILL begin to shun you. They (the elders) will tell anyone who wonders aloud about you to leave it to them to call on you. Don't call or go to your house.

How do I know? Because I was one of those "wonderers", who asked about a sis who was missing meetings after separating from her abusive husband. "Don't call or go to her house anymore. Leave it to the brothers to check on her", said the PO at the time. We were out in service when the conversation happened. Still strikes me as odd that a regular JW is not supposed to call on a person who is missing meetings. Only elders.

32

Lies on the JW.org FAQ section

by EndofMysteries in

it's riddled with lies.

here are a few, "are you an american sect?

all of our teachings are based on the bible, not on the writings of some religious leader in the united states.1 thessalonians 2:13.. we follow jesus christ, not any human leader.matthew 23:8-10.. .

Gentledawn

Question: "What's the difference between a cult. . . and my church, my service club, or, say, Alcoholics Anonymous?"

There are lots of differences, but the major difference is that of ultimate goal. Established religions and altruistic movements are focused outward--they attempt to better the lives of members and often, nonmembers. They make altruistic contributions. Cults serve their own purposes, which are the purposes of the cult leader; their energies are focused inward rather than outward (Singer, 1995). Also, religions and altruistic movements typically lack the distinguishing characteristics of overbearing authoritarian control, the use of deception in recruitment, the use of coercive influence techniques, and the replacement of one identity with another which would not have been freely chosen by the individual before joining the group (Hassan, 1990).

http://www.workingpsychology.com/cult.html

-----------------

23

As far as the Watchtower goes, how should an adulteress be punished?

by I_love_Jeff in

should we use jesus' advice john 8:7 or god's advice .

leviticus 20:10?

.

Gentledawn

A couple of thoughts :

NB . The Bible Gateway site says

This story, beloved for its revelation of God's mercy toward sinners, is found only in John. It was almost certainly not part of John's original Gospel.

Anyway if true, it would show Jesus' flexibility and individuality of judgement on someone he discerned to be repentant, not a rejection of The Law.

I have sat on committees when adulteresses have been forgiven because of professed repentance . The WTS, bad though its system is, practises individual judgements

from biblegateway:

[John] 7:53–8:11 These verses are not present in some Greek manuscripts, and in others they appear at different locations, such as after 7:36, or even in Luke.

If the GB & WT leadership wanna get all anal retentive about what did or did not appear in any ancient Greek manuscripts, then they should ALSO remove Jehovah's name (tetragrammaton) in place of "Lord" (kurios) in the places they put it all those decades ago. By context, some of the insertions seem to have been done whenever/wherever they felt like it, regardless of context.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 (NWT)

For YOU yourselves know quite well that Jehovah’s day is coming exactly as a thief in the night.

^ In context, it's pretty obvious that scripture was refering to Jesus, not Jehovah.

---------

Jesus fulfilled the law. He wasn't judging anyone back then, not even the demons. As someone who sat on committees, why would you not know this?

I've never had to meet with a judicial committee. The people I know who have seem to come out worse for the wear. That whole "known by the congregation" crap is just that: crap. The elders are not the whole of the congregation. They've taken it upon themselves, because they've been told/it's been implied by WT leadership that they (elders) have that sort of authority. And yet if the elders know of outright wrongdoing (such as confessed pedophiles, etc), how is it they do not view that as "being known by the congregation"?

Matthew 18:15-17

15 “Moreover, if your brother commits a sin, go lay bare his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen, take along with you one or two more, in order that at the mouth of two or three witnesses every matter may be established. 17 If he does not listen to them, speak to the congregation. If he does not listen even to the congregation, let him be to you just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector.

^ the elders act the part of the "congregation", using this scripture to justify their "judicial committees". Correct? Therefore, any confessions (including pedophiles) are known by the "congregation"! And yet consensual sex between 2 adults (adultry/fornication) is oftentimes treated worse than confessed pedophiles (Gordon Leighton case in the U.K. being the one that "woke" me up this past summer).

Jesus' whole point (and the scriptures for that matter) was that if you want to play judge, then expect the same judgment. You can't bite the elephant on the tail and think you can walk away without having to swallow the whole thing. If you take it on, then you have to accept the whole package.

Jesus statement is made as a deterrent from being quick to judge. He knows the heart of man and what it leans toward. His disciples bickered time and time again, because they all wanted to be the greatest.

Physical prostitution and adultry doesn't hold a candle to false prophets, failed prophecy, and outright lying ("theocratic warfare").

74

The Gall Of WT To Give This Advice To Pioneers:

by JW GoneBad in

this past week's wt study lesson was entitled: 'pioneering strengthens our relationship with god'.. under the subheading 'remaining in the full-time service' in par 14 the wt has the nerve to give this admonition to pioneers: .

'desiring to learn from jesus' example, a pioneer does well to keep in mind that the more material things he has, the more he will have to maintain , repair, or replace.'.

i don't think the gb or anyone in the writing department has the freedom to speak on giving adivce on the matter of 'material things' given the fact that wt has close to a billion dollars in real estate and loads of money in various bank accounts; given the fact that gb is currently building themselves new living quarters with who knows what sort of comforts and other amenities.

Gentledawn

There were some videos of GB members linked on JWsurvey recently. One of the GB members was yawning on and on about how children ---children!!! -- who were old enough to read were also old enough to participate in field service. By age 10 they should be either baptized or well on their way. If they weren't baptized by age 11, 12, or 13yo, then something was seriously amiss!

Because when Jesus went to the temple and schooled those teachers at age 12, he waltzed right out of that temple and got himself baptized afterwards.

Oh, wait. No he didn't.

What these men say and do has a profound effect on their followers. Anyone who has taken the time to read the 1954 court transcripts, when Franz and Covington were grilled about "false prophecy" (1874 being "erroneous" and not a false prophecy, according to Fred Franz and Hayden Covington) and how it was obligatory for ALL witnesses to believe whatever is being said by the leadership and publications will plainly see that this religion chases and follows men, not God.

Modern men with their modern day non-biblical dates, failed prophecies, and non-spirit annointed hub-bub malarkey.

Luke 21:8

He said: “Look out that YOU are not misled; for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am he,’ and, ‘The due time has approached.’ Do not go after them.

---

Deut 18:20

20 “‘However, the prophet who presumes to speak in my name a word that I have not commanded him to speak or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet must die.

As someone on the ex-JW forum of reddit noted:

"Prob_Bad_Association" stated:

"They don't answer to anyone, that's the problem. They currently have everyone convinced that they get it both ways. They are gods spokesman here on earth, therefore infallible and must be obeyed without question, but they are also imperfect humans and therefore when it turns out they were wrong, it is their fault, not gods, and they can "readjust" the teaching to conform to "new light." You can't really have it both ways, you're either infallible and therefore subject to the scriptures about false prophets, or you're imperfect, and therefore can't demand unquestioning obedience. But, there's no one for them to answer to, and anyone who points this out is swiftly df'd as an apostate, so there it stands."

74

The Gall Of WT To Give This Advice To Pioneers:

by JW GoneBad in

this past week's wt study lesson was entitled: 'pioneering strengthens our relationship with god'.. under the subheading 'remaining in the full-time service' in par 14 the wt has the nerve to give this admonition to pioneers: .

'desiring to learn from jesus' example, a pioneer does well to keep in mind that the more material things he has, the more he will have to maintain , repair, or replace.'.

i don't think the gb or anyone in the writing department has the freedom to speak on giving adivce on the matter of 'material things' given the fact that wt has close to a billion dollars in real estate and loads of money in various bank accounts; given the fact that gb is currently building themselves new living quarters with who knows what sort of comforts and other amenities.

Gentledawn

They do have a financially comfortable life, without a doubt, but considering all of the wealth and property at the fingertips, they're not exactly taking advantage of that situation, now are they?

They wear what looks to be tailor made suits, with french cuffs (requiring cuff links) and french collars. Most if not all of the GB members sport rings on both hands. One hand may be wedding bands, but some of those rings look to have some sort of insignia. They wear expensive looking watches, travel the world for free, and have their faces with captioned names on JW.org website.

Make no mistake: These are kept men. Everything they do and say is followed and emulated.

ALL talks and study articles are designed around the "persuasive" speech model. The "yes set" (provide an example of something the audience can readily agree with), followed by "truisms" ("facts" that cannot be researched, debated or thought critically about), and rounded up with the "suggestion" (get the audience to do what the speaker wants, modify behavior, or what not).

If you want to see "persuasive" talk (mind control) in action, search "pink shirt prank" on youtube. Two guys persuade perfect strangers (female) to kiss them using all the above sales pitches.