Posts by Odrade

Yep, my dad is still in, (Let's not call it the "Truth," makes me retch, huh? LOL!) and heavily involved - Building committee, AH committee, he's one of those guys that gets lots of invites (out of town, out of state, out of country) to give the Memorial talks (and no, he's not "anointed.") To his credit, he always accepts the first one, rather than waiting to see which prestigious offers roll in.

In the past, that has meant he has been obligated to drive himself at his own expense to some little podunk 5 hours away, instead of getting flown in to Cozumel by the congregation. He believes it totally. I don't know what that does to him, to see this stuff happen. He must see it, I can't believe that he could live in such a vacuum, so I don't know how he deals with it. I've got to believe he just closes off that part of his brain and refuses to acknowledge it - which in some respects is just as reprehensible.

82

Some thing for woman to think about

by is there help out there in

jw
friends

almost all woman want to get married and have children.

if you are a faithful jw woman there is a good chance this will never happen.

70% of jw are woman and 30% are men.

Odrade

daring: Elders and MS, I would think. Absolute power and all that jazz. Makes men into abusers who may not necessarily be predisposed to that sort of behavior. It makes it alright, and once you've crossed one line of control, the next line is a little closer, until in no time flat you're coming up on tyranny.

You know, things are so stratified in the Organization, even within each KH, that it's impossible to get a true picture of people while you're still in.

I think of some of the people I knew when I was growing up, and how highly I thought of them. Elders who treated me like their own family, pioneers who were my closest friends. Then, after leaving, finding out that I was treated completely differently from my peers, who did not have the status that my family had. How, when they got in trouble, these men who I perceived as kind people that I could go to with any problem if I needed to, treated them like scum. The unkindnesses I heard about did not track with my own experiences.

I heard about men who were molesting their kids, I heard about servants having affairs with teenage girls, stories about stalkers... I learned about elders who told people that they could never measure up, and they'd never be worthy of holy spirit. I heard my friends describe judicial committees where they felt like the difference between being DF'd or just reproved, was whether they cried hard enough, not whether they were "repentant." (My best friend was blackmailed by her loving father into baptism - something I NEVER would have suspected of him.)

I think one of the things that kept me in for so long is that my dad was a really honorable man. I mean, the standards that he expected of everyone else... he held himself to the same standards, plus. He NEVER looked at another woman (and he had groupies, well they tried anyways, but not one of them ever got close.) If a sister called to talk to him, he would conference call in another brother, or else he would leave his office door open, and let her know that their conversation might not be private. He was by the book in every aspect he could control.

In some ways that made him harsh, but in others, it set the bar very high. Since he never waivered from his ethics, I think I came to expect that everyone else was acting honorably also. Imagine my shock when I started to see that wasn't true. Drunk elders and their drunk wives, cliques, affairs (hetero and homo), those weird wife swaps where two married people have an affair, and then the "wronged" spouses end up hooking up too, and all of the physical abuse! So many people I had no clue were getting beaten regularly and yet still coming to the meetings and giving talks about love and wonderful the JW family unit is. Gag.

Well, now I'm just rambling, but it just seems like the entire organization is one big fun house mirror maze, where you never know exactly what it is you're seeing.

82

Some thing for woman to think about

by is there help out there in

jw
friends

almost all woman want to get married and have children.

if you are a faithful jw woman there is a good chance this will never happen.

70% of jw are woman and 30% are men.

Odrade

Here's an interesting addendum to this discussion...

I was in New Seasons today having lunch (NS is a local boutique grocery store with a "gourmet" luncheon area.) I was sitting at a little table right behind a group of 6 women, all dressed up in church clothes and sensible shoes. I wouldn't have thought much about it except that ALL of them were in "service appropriate" dresses and skirts. Now, I enjoy eavesdropping as much as the next person, and I'll admit that even after 8 years out, I'm still pretty good at spotting a "car group." (Not to mention the fact that 3 of the women had packed their own lunches in little thermal bags, which tells me that they didn't just stroll over from an office with a fridge. Heh.)

At least 4 of them were married (rings), and the other two I couldn't see their hands. The topic of conversation was how to get "permission" from their husbands to do things. We're not talking BIG things, we're talking little things, like having someone over for dinner, or taking an outing on Saturday afternoon. They all agreed that their husbands would never give them permission to do anything if they asked outright. (One of the women said it took her years of him saying "no" to everything, before she learned how to get permission.)

They discussed the various methods they used to get such small bits of freedom (my take on it.) One woman described how she has to plan activities weeks in advance, so she has time to start dropping hints to get him used to the idea, so then about a week ahead of time when she asks for the "final" permission, he is more likely to say yes.

It was really very sad (and a little bit amusing too,) these were attractive, intelligent women. Obviously pioneers or close (why else would they be putting in a long Monday?) Their husbands had "duties" at the KH, so we can assume that at least some of them were servants, and yet these smart, lovely ladies, were living this life of subservient triviality. What a shame!

No wonder so many of them eventually act out!

I kind of wished I could have told them: "You know, on the OUTSIDE, women are allowed to be partners with their spouses." But of course, they have the BEST way of life, so I hope they remember that next time they want to buy an extra chicken so they can have a picnic lunch, and have to plan for a week just to get permission.

32

Anyone look at this board while still an IN and ACTIVE JW?

by Mad Sweeney in

jw
friends

i vaguely remember looking at this board a few years ago, before i ever considered leaving the borg, and being appalled at the evil and hateful attitudes i saw here and scared to death of reading any further.. now i go back through years and years of posts and there is no evil or hate there at all.

it's one of the most kind and welcoming boards i've encountered since the invention of the internet.. that is how well borg indoctrination works.

it is eerily like 1984. black is white.

Odrade

My husband was reading here before we left. The day I made the decision to quit, he showed me the site.

82

Some thing for woman to think about

by is there help out there in

jw
friends

almost all woman want to get married and have children.

if you are a faithful jw woman there is a good chance this will never happen.

70% of jw are woman and 30% are men.

Odrade

Daring: you have a PM. :)

82

Some thing for woman to think about

by is there help out there in

jw
friends

almost all woman want to get married and have children.

if you are a faithful jw woman there is a good chance this will never happen.

70% of jw are woman and 30% are men.

Odrade

LOL, well, Daring, you are nothing if not inconsistent. meh.

82

Some thing for woman to think about

by is there help out there in

jw
friends

almost all woman want to get married and have children.

if you are a faithful jw woman there is a good chance this will never happen.

70% of jw are woman and 30% are men.

Odrade

misery: do you comprehend WHY JW women feel like they have to either conduct a spiritual show and tell session, OR throw themselves at the man's libido? Some women in the Org play one side, some play the other. The endgame is to not end up a lonely nobody.

Women in the WTS learn that, for the most part, she cannot have a spiritual or doctrinal discussion with a man, because if she happens to have a better understanding of the concept, she will be accused of "teaching," and "usurping authority." If she does not already have a mate with status, or is living in her father's home (and the father has status,) she will generally be shown very little leniency for being intelligent and interesting. Being an intelligent, single, adult woman is generally not an asset in the Organization. One might get a little status if she is an ATTRACTIVE, intelligent, adult PIONEER woman in the organization, but all it takes to topple her is:

not making her time,
being seen in a car, alone, with a single any man,
making a comment that exposes a man's ignorance on any topic,
turning down the advances of any man on the servant body
turning down the advances of the "marriageable" son of an elder,
not kowtowing to the P.O.'s (or whoever the "Power Elder" happens to be) wife,
not entertaining the C.O. and spouse,
entertaining the C.O. and spouse if someone else wanted to do it,
commenting too little at the meetings
commenting too much at the meetings
commenting too intelligently at the meetings
dressing too fashionably
dressing too frumpily
being interested in a man who another woman with more "status" already has "dibs" on
having the wrong elder "notice" her
driving a 2-door car
going to school
not participating enough on KH toilet cleaning
having had any "youthful indiscretions"
NOT having had any "youthful indiscretions" (don't kid yourself, the ones who are "unsullied" are not desirable, they are "ice queens"- untouchable. Literally.
etc, etc, etc

There are so many ways a woman in the Organization can become invisible, and so few ways she can assure her continued social connections, friends, invites to gatherings, having a full cargroup, finding a spouse, having respect...

It is the policy-making in the Organization that creates this unfortunate situation, not some intrinsic "whorishness"of the women within. IF the men in the WTS follow the WT policies to the letter, this environment is created. The fault of the men is not recognizing it and refusing to comply. However, if one does compassionately refuse to adopt the misogynist training imposed upon him by the WTS, he runs the risk of falling into the same prison of invisibility and insignificance that we women faced every day.

I find it disturbing, however, how strenuously many men hold onto these views when they leave the Organization, refusing to recognize that these beliefs ALSO were part of their indoctrination, and as much as they were wrong about Armageddon and the "New Earth," they may also be egregiously misled in their views of women.

P.S. to Daring: "Guess what, it's mostly the sisters..." Um... are you really that ignorant on how sex works? Poor innocent misled brothers getting duped by whores. *pouts*

82

Some thing for woman to think about

by is there help out there in

jw
friends

almost all woman want to get married and have children.

if you are a faithful jw woman there is a good chance this will never happen.

70% of jw are woman and 30% are men.

Odrade

Daring: I notice that your number of women pursuing you is inflating rapidly. You might want to harmonize your posting history before we start questioning your veracity.

It's clear to me that you fundamentally lack any understanding or compassion for what it is like to be a woman in the Organization. You've bought hook line and sinker into the indoctrination that women are whores and that men are their innocent dupes.

You've written multiple times on this board about how horrible and evil JW women are, (yes, I checked your posting history, and noticed that you spend a disproportionate amount of your efforts on misogyny,) and have yet to address the greater issues surrounding being a woman in the WTS: issues of lack of power and status, issues of credibility based simply on what parts they have, issues of being forced to bare their deepest secrets to a room full of potential woman-haters anytime its demanded of them, or risk losing their community entirely.

You fail to take into account that the ONLY real power left to women in the organization is sexual power. And even then, if she tries to use that power to get a tiny bit of status or protection, she always runs the risk of being thought a "jezebel" or a whore.

So tell me, how many judicial committees did you sit on, where the woman was df'd or publicly reproved, and the man got a lesser sentence?

In the Organization, there's ALWAYS a power differential, and it ALWAYS amplifies in favor of the male participant, no matter how "non-character" you perceive the female to be. No matter how many (4?, 5?, EIGHT?) married women are throwing themselves at you.