I must admit that through my teenage years and into my early twenties I had a deep disregard for authorities. I ran from police on more than several occasions. There were much worse things I had wanted to do as a fear of civil punishment was non existent in me but I refrained because fear of God was within me. Now that I'm older and have real things to lose for acting wrecklessly, I do fear civil punishment but I no longer fear Godly punishment. The point is that in some circumstances, fear of God, however dilusional it might be now in hindsight, can have a meaningful role in civility where these so-called "in-grained" ethics might fail or where fear of governmental punishment is dampered.
sunny23
JoinedPosts by sunny23
-
2596
The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday
by cofty inyesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.
we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.
they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.
-
-
-
-
-
sunny23
ldrnomo do you still have a copy of the original letter you sent?
Im curious to what you said about the alcohol analogy. I was 19 when that came out and taking technical communications in college and remember thinking it was a major Cum Hoc fallacy. It's comparing two situations including two substances that can't be analagous. Alcohol can't be injected intravenously to save a life, in fact it will kill a person so of course no doctor would be behind doing such a thing. This makes the analogy misleading to the readers as they quickly assume that injecting alcohol into your veins is crazy and thus so is blood.
Island man i really liked your response! very concise and in a way I couldn't have worded better.
-
2596
The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday
by cofty inyesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.
we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.
they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.
-
-
sunny23
Ok so this is honestly my 9th attempt over the past 2 months at typing out a long response to give further backing to a theist argument to defend God's inaction only to re-read it before I post and delete it all. There really isn't a way in my eyes to give sound logic with or without the bible to give reason on this matter. Through both this thread and other sources i'm now aggnostic. I feel though concerning the existence or non existence of God, as this thread has brought up frequently that it is something to be argued between both theist and atheist scientists as brough out by Neil deGrassr Tyson (Atheist Astro Physicist) here in this video from 0:00 until 4:50 he explaines this. Interesting watch, if you would like to see the entire 1.5hr speech it is linked in the descption of this clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xvILvxYbFA
-
2596
The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday
by cofty inyesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.
we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.
they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.
-
-
sunny23
I have read about 45 pages of this thread as it seems to grow almost 20 pages every time I check.
Referring back to the most recent summary for reference here but have learned A LOT from the individual posts and am extremely grateful for this threads contributions as it has drastically and effectively changed much of my views in a very short time! I still feel that some of the rationality regarding the “responses” to some theist claims are a bit misleading and/or presumptuous but I feel that perhaps it’s more that the responses need to be “cleaned up” to avoid confusion or even further disagreement with them. Working to address that now, be back soon, and thanks to Cofty and others for their persistence in this thread! ;-)
-
38
Atheism and Theism are only partly right!
by abiather intoday we know that matter and energy are interchangeable, hence they are there always in either form, they are eternal, hence requires no creator.
hence atheism is right in rejecting a creator, but failed in providing any motivation for people to do good.
religions, in their effort to provide a motivating factor for humans to do good, introduced creation stories and other myths; hence they too are right (as far as their intention is concerned), yet failed in producing any worthy resultsworld was steadily moving from bad to worse and from worse to worst!.
-
-
sunny23
"The electron has to move into the same orbit again and again, eternally."
Ummm..FALSE
"There is no need to discover the “cause,” when the consequence is the child of that cause."
No need? At all ever?! Our modern civilization and technology wouldnt be where it is today if it weren't for people looking into the "cause" of things. It's in our nature to do so as well. And IMO there is a need for it in most cases. To live without it would be to live oblivious and careless. Searching into the deeper things of life including the origins of life is essential for everyone to do. Maybe unneccessary to obsess about it until death but I say that it's not something everyone should just shrug off entirely. Looking into the "cause" of things no matter what your findings at least give you a foundation on which to believe or disbelieve inorder to bring more equinimity into your life.
-
19
Don't Question GOD! (aka the governing body)
by sunny23 indid a simple search in the wt library for words like, "question," "questioning," "doubts/ing,"obey," "understand.".
these are listed in order of occurence oldest to newest (up to 2012 as my library is 2012 version).
"if we have love for jehovah and for the organization of his people we shall not be suspicious, but shall, as the bible says, 'believe all things,' all the things that the watchtower brings out"qualified to be ministers (1955) p.156.
-
-
sunny23
"The nu-light for 2013 says that the faithful slave is not appointed over Christ's belongings, and won't be for the forseeable future."
I did not know this! WOW. So if they are not appointed over Christs belongings then what does that make them? What does that make their followers? Are baptized JW's no longer part of "Christ's belongings?" Or is it just a big mind controlling slosh of imperfect people letting a small group of imperfect and dinvinely unguided guys tell them what to believe? Is the "light getting brighter" or is it really just the GB gaining more practical wisdom to be able to interpret things in a way to save their asses better?
For example,
Luke 16:1-8
"Then he went on to say also to the disciples: “A certain man was rich and he had a steward, and this one was accused to him as handling his goods wastefully. 2 So he called him and said to him, ‘What is this I hear about you? Hand in the account of your stewardship, for you can no longer manage the house.’ 3 Then the steward said to himself, ‘What am I to do, seeing that my master will take the stewardship away from me? I am not strong enough to dig, I am ashamed to beg. 4 Ah! I know what I shall do, so that, when I am put out of the stewardship, people will receive me into their homes.’ 5 And calling to him each one of the debtors of his master he proceeded to say to the first, ‘How much are you owing my master?’ 6 He said, ‘A hundred bath measures of olive oil.’ He said to him, ‘Take your written agreement back and sit down and quickly write fifty.’ 7 Next, he said to another one, ‘Now you, how much are you owing?’ He said, ‘A hundred cor measures of wheat.’ He said to him, ‘Take your written agreement back and write eighty.’ 8 And his master commended the steward, though unrighteous, because he acted with practical wisdom; for the sons of this system of things are wiser in a practical way toward their own generation than the sons of the light are."
No new light. The GB is just getting wiser. Like a teenager to a college student, to a parent, to a grand parent, wiser with time and experience. Or like the steward trying to scramble to save his ass thus having to use practical wisdom? Don't want to look bad and be abondandoned by their "people" when their doctrine is inconsistent or "inspired" words fail to come true. -
19
Don't Question GOD! (aka the governing body)
by sunny23 indid a simple search in the wt library for words like, "question," "questioning," "doubts/ing,"obey," "understand.".
these are listed in order of occurence oldest to newest (up to 2012 as my library is 2012 version).
"if we have love for jehovah and for the organization of his people we shall not be suspicious, but shall, as the bible says, 'believe all things,' all the things that the watchtower brings out"qualified to be ministers (1955) p.156.
-
-
sunny23
Did a simple search in the WT Library for words like, "question," "questioning," "doubts/ing,"obey," "understand."
These are listed in order of occurence oldest to newest (up to 2012 as my library is 2012 version)
"If we have love for Jehovah and for the organization of his people we shall not be suspicious, but shall, as the Bible says, 'Believe all things,' all the things that the Watchtower brings out" Qualified to be Ministers (1955) p.156
"Jehovah uses his organization to teach and feed his people. (Matt. 24:45-47) Hence believe without suspicion the truth set forth by the “faithful and discreet slave.” Watchtower 1962 Sep 1 p.524
"In Jehovah's organization it is not necessary to spend a lot of time and energy in research, for there are brothers in the organization who are assigned to that very thing."Watchtower 1967 Jun 1 p.338
"The point is that Christians have implicit trust in their heavenly Father; they do not question what he tells them through his written Word and organization." Watchtower 1974 July 15 p.441
“No matter where we may live on earth, God’s Word continues to serve as a light to our path and a lamp to our roadway as to our conduct and beliefs. (Ps. 119:105) But Jehovah God has also provided his visible organization, his “faithful and discreet slave”,” made up of spirit-anointed ones, to help Christians in all nations to understand and apply properly the Bible in their lives. Unless we are in touch with his channel of communication that God is using, we will not progress along the road to life, no matter how much bible reading we do.” Watchtower 1981 Dec 1 p.27
"Avoid questioning the counsel (doctrine) that is provided by God's visible organization. Some who point out that the organization has had to make some adjustments (to doctrine) before, and so they argue: "This shows that we have to make up our own mind on what to believe." This is independent thinking. It is dangerous!" Watchtower 1983 Jan 15 p.22
"Really, since our Lord has used "the faithful and discreet slave" to convey to us "sayings of everlasting life," why should we ever want to look anywhere else?" Watchtower 1987 Nov 1 p.20
"We also remember that one feature of 'the wisdom from above' is being 'ready to obey.' Due to background and upbringing, some may be more given to independent thinking and self-will than others. Perhaps this is an area where we need to discipline ourselves and 'make our mind over' so that we can perceive more clearly what the 'will of God' is." Watchtower 1987 Feb 1 p.19 (OMG please don’t think for yourselves you sheep!)
"So, if doubts, complaints, or apostasy threaten to contaminate you spiritually, cut them away quickly! (Compare Matthew 5:29, 30.) Get help from the congregation elders." Watchtower 1989 Oct 1 p.18
"First, since "oneness" is to be observed, a mature Christian … does not advocate or insist on personal opinions or harbor private ideas when it comes to Bible understanding." Watchtower 2001 Aug 1 p.14
"However, we cannot hope to acquire a good relationship with Jehovah if we ignore those whom Jesus has appointed to care for his belongings. Without the assistance of “the faithful and discreet slave,” we would neither understand the full import of what we read in God’s Word nor know how to apply it." Examining the Scriptures Daily 2012 Mar 4
CONCLUSION
Do’s: Believe all things from WT, put implicit trust in WT, be ready to obey WT, cut away all doubts.
Don’ts: Don’t be suspicious of WT, don’t spend much time researching WT, do not question WT,don’t think for yourself
-
42
I want to send a follow-up question to my sister who has recently cut me off
by Faithful Witness inrecently, i received this email from my jw sister: .
while i appreciate the thought, please do not send us gifts.. our kids are not missing out on anything other than things we try to protect them from.. at this time, based on prior encounters and their affect on me emotionally, i think it would be best if we didn't communicate.. i hope you can understand my decision and the fact that it is not meant to offend anyone.. .
i sent her a loving and forgiving message, and know she has no intention of answering me.
-
-
sunny23
"I wish you would at the very least explain your motives for cutting me dead. Christ himself told his followers that they must do so. (Matt. 5:23,24) It's a command for Christians, not a suggestion. Regardless of how you treat me, you will always be my sister and I will always love you."
I like the idea but the scripture uses the term "brother" and if you are disfellowshipped (aka no longer one of JW), then you wouldn't fit the criteria of the scripture according to JW's most likely. I think your original draft response is best, emphasize continuing love.
-
2596
The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday
by cofty inyesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.
we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.
they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.
-
-
sunny23
“15. Suffering will be unimportant compared to eternal rewards.
Response - Like other theodices it is dehumanising by reducing humans to pawns in god's game.
Imagine that scientists developed a pill that would eradicate all unwelcome memories and create a feeling of bliss. How would you judge a scientist who imposed the most horrific suffering on millions of people, as unwilling subjects of his experiment, but who gave all of them one of the magic pills when it was over?”
I would feel that the scientist better have some damn good reasons for doing so! Although after taking the pill I probably would no longer give a f***
If a man came up to me and said that he’d give me $1,000 if I let him punch me in the face I would take it! If he offered me $50,000 to break my femur and pay my medical bills I would take it! If he offered me $10billion and the entire islands of Hawaii and continent of Australlia completely under my ownership if I were to let him torture me for a week until I died but guaranteed I would be revived and restored to perfect health and demonstrated proof of this and I knew it to be true and worthy then I would take it as well! To what end, to what magnitude, and to what degree or ratio do the suffering and the reward need to be in order to become acceptable to all? I’m tempted to say f*** determining the morality of it or judging the guy, give us the reward! Why waste time judging the scientist or God when we could just try to make the best of what we have now and hopefully of what we get after? But perhaps to view it as only this would be dehumanizing, so there must be more to it.
You asked how I would judge a scientist who imposed that suffering, that’s to assume that God is causing the suffering and you already state this is more about why it’s allowed and that God isn’t causing it right? Usually there are other factors to come into play and I believe that PB mentioned it best when saying,
“Aren't there times when men or women in authority must make hard choices? Choosing between saving a mother caught in a burning car or her child? Or the Fire Chief who must call his men out of a burning building knowing full well there are still people trapped in there. Hard choices happen every day in war as well. For the most part, these choices are recognized as necessary though much heartache has resulted. It is my belief that God is being placed in the same position. Choosing to allow a terrible circumstance in order to bring about a better world is very hard to understand but in the end we will know and understand. That is my firm belief.”
We aren’t simply manipulated and man-handled pawns in God’s game, perhaps we are chess pieces with free will to move about on our own but with the influences of bigger “spirit” game over-lookers. If God really did enable angels and people with free will then it is inevitable that in order to keep order in his court (the universe and heavens) he would eventually after inevitable chaos, allow the defense and prosecution (satan & jesus?) to make their cases before he makes a ruling. A judge can only do so much “ruling” to keep things fair, and it’s usually only done once all parties have exhausted all possible attacks and defenses and evidences. Perhaps we are living in the time of “evidence exhibit v,” and have a few more before a ruling is made? Perhaps there is no intervening of God any more, perhaps he intervened only enough in the start to guarantee the survival of so called “good” people because many lacked our inherent sense of love and compassion and the desire for fairness as mentioned before. Now-a-days we put people with no love and empathy in psych wards to die heavily medicated. There are plenty of good loving compassionate people today and perhaps why God doesn’t need to intervene anymore until that changes and/or a “ruling” has become necessary due to the ending of divine court hearings?
If there is God and he created all things. He creates angels, the galaxies, and the first humans on earth. He enables all “thinking” beings such as angels and humans with the power of FREE WILL. What are the odds or chances that over a long enough timeline (eternity) that “shit hits the fan” and all chaos breaks lose if he were to NEVER intervene? (100% in case you were wondering)How much intervention is allowed before infringing upon the parameters of free-will? Could we for a minute “play God” and come up with a way to create an everlasting earth and heavens with all angels and humans living peacefully and no “evil,” natural or otherwise, ever occurring whilst still allowing free will? If we can’t come up with a perfect scenario to meet these terms (and we can’t), then that points us to either:
1)The non-existence of a creator
2)The existence of a careless non-intervening creator
3) The existence of a creator who cares but has good reason not to intervene in natural disasters for reasons that we could never understand without asking him personally.
This discussion however isn’t to debate the existence of a creator but to try and provide reasons as to why a supposed “loving creator” would sit idly watching people die from tsunamis.
I don’t know, I’m just speculating, to believe in a God is to assume He is doing the right thing under the circumstances of ruling over beings with free will and yet being unable to explain why he is still continuing to allow natural and unnatural evil to occur. In my eyes I believe the reward of eternal life without suffering or natural evil IS adequate compensation for the current situation even though we might not agree it is and YES if I was the father and husband to victims of the tsunami I wouldn’t agree with that logic until I died and rejoined my family, then I would agree ONLY IF God gave me good reason as to why he had to allow all that shit to take place for so long. We can only speculate.
-
2596
The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday
by cofty inyesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.
we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.
they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.
-
-
sunny23
Not arguing to defend Gods existence. I'm pretending there is a God and then assuming that ALL of those killed in the tsunami will be given a chance at peacfull eternal life and then going from there to see if I can use logic to justify his actions in a manner more effective than that pastor tried as Ibelieve he did lesser of a job at it and if in doing so I feel that there is no adequate or plausible justification I then have to chose to hold that as another point against believing in a God.