Then if the reason is that God thinks suffering is beneficial for growth or any other variation that is horrific when dealing with murderous rapes or large tsunami death tolls, then he is not worthy of worship. Thats the point! The point is not that you are not stating a reason at all PS, it's that you can't state a reason that makes God worthy of worship. The bible doesn't answer this. Logic and proper morals doesn't answer this. God didn't care to let humans know his reasons yet expects them to worship him regardless.
sunny23
JoinedPosts by sunny23
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2596
The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday
by cofty inyesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.
we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.
they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.
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82
Is Faith Immoral?
by Coded Logic inwhen people willfully believe something without evidence, or contrary to evidence, are they neglecting thier moral responsibility?
so many people say faith is a virtue but i just can't comprehend why anyone would think that.
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sunny23
Where does that gut feeling of right and wrong come from?
When someone who is raised in a family without God or religion then picks up the bible and reads things out of Leviticus or Deuteronomy (ie honor killings and the like) and then also reads about the Golden Rule in there as well, they are judging with their pre-established brain and sense of right and wrong as to whether to follow these "pearls of wisdom" or not. God is not needed for morals.
The gut feeling of right and wrong comes from our instinctual emotional response to minimize suffering, maximize happiness, and keep propogation foremost. Thanks to natural selection anyway. Notice that animals typically don't kill other animals of the same species but when they do (feuding ant colonies, lions eating cubs who joined a new pride, etc) it is usually justified as defense, territory claims, or some other necessary reason. Outside of that animals dont usually "murder" without cause. They must have learned it from the bible. If it's ingrained by God then God must have failed to ingrain it to an adequate degree in many mass murdering humans. Or as I like to believe, its murderers who lack something biologically to drive them to murder rather than not having been ingrained with enough empathy by God.
I like Terry's analogy on the island and using faith as a tool for survival and positivity and thats great. In some religions, faith can be used as a tool for positivity for many. However I don't see it being a necessary tool for survival. It has however been used as a tool for killing others. Yet the faith iself isn't to be judged as immoral, the action is to be judged as immoral. To label faith alone as immoral is like saying, "computer desk is immoral."
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HOW TO AVOID THE A-HOLE SPIRIT OF SOME HERE...
by DATA-DOG in1) take meds for your megalomania and delusions of grandeur.. .
suggestions welcome.. .
dd.
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sunny23
FHN and AndDontCallmeShirley: watch the first 4:40 of the video i posted on the previous page. 7% is referring to ELITE scientists, not all scientists. Also it's not the exact percent that matters so much as it is the concept of whose arguing with who. NDT says it best.
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152
HOW TO AVOID THE A-HOLE SPIRIT OF SOME HERE...
by DATA-DOG in1) take meds for your megalomania and delusions of grandeur.. .
suggestions welcome.. .
dd.
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sunny23
What does Mr Astrophysicits Tyson have to say about this? How many scientists are theists vs degrees in education.
Interesting watch, if you would like to see the entire 1.5hr speech it is linked in the descption of this clip but concerning this topic you only need to watch the first 5 min....
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2596
The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday
by cofty inyesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.
we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.
they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.
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sunny23
So God puts humans on earth. Wants them to become more like him therefore he imposes physical suffering. You deny that he caused the earth to be faulty (pun intended) and yet you believe he has the power to stop Tsunamis. Do you not believe in the bible at all? Genesis gives God's purpose to mankind to fill the earth and live forever. Even Jesus references to God creating the first male and female in Mathew ch 19. He makes several other references to the OT. Do just cherry pick what you like from the bible?
what's the point in wanting mankind to live on earth forever without suffering only to then kick them out when they rebel out of trying to be more like you (as eating magic apples can do) so they can suffer hundreds of generations in order to become more like you?
Also, in order for your theory to work it means that in the after life the souls would need to remember all of their suffering in order for their character to have developed to be more like God. That's worse than the scientist magic pill analogy.
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2596
The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday
by cofty inyesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.
we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.
they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.
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sunny23
I might be misinterpreting your overall message by the way you worded a few phrases. If so I'm sorry. I have posted the analogy this page and last
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2596
The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday
by cofty inyesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.
we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.
they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.
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sunny23
Sunny, I stated already that I DO NOT agree with the "end justifies the means", never have and probably never will.
but you said previously...
but the one that I tend to lean towards is that suffering is crucial to the development of humans as beings who will eventually "be like god". -Ps
So then suffering is the means, and to become "like God" is the end that justifies it? Do you no longer believe this as of 3hours ago?
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2596
The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday
by cofty inyesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.
we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.
they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.
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sunny23
I've studied buddhism as well including a class tought by Robert Wright from Princeton online along with my own studies. I enjoy it a lot, specifically the scripture-free zen aspects.
I'm most concerned with how you would judge a scientist in the aboze stated analogy.
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2596
The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday
by cofty inyesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.
we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.
they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.
-
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sunny23
Buddhism strives for non-suffering. Buddhism defines suffering differently than most people would, it includes even desire for things you dont have as suffering. I don't feel that to be suffering in the sense that we are concerned about in this thread which is physical pain leading to death and thus the emotional lasting torment of survivors.
Ps..
I was only infering from YOUR implications. If i'm wrong in what I assume about your implications or if Im wrong in the analogies then please correct me! I mean no offense. I was referring to this underlined part as it seemed to fit with exactly what you said...
7. Answers that trivialise the reality of human suffering
For example..
Suffering will be unimportant compared to eternal rewardsRational Response
This is ethically repugnant. Suffering is not reducible to arithmetic. This life really matters. Any philosophy that minimises the importance of physical human life is dangerous. It is the same mentality that leads to religious extremism and flies aeorplanes into tall buildings.It is an extreme example of "the end justifies the means" defence, so beloved of tyrants.
Like other theodicies it is dehumanising by reducing humans to pawns in god's game.
Imagine that scientists developed a pill that would eradicate all unwelcome memories and create a feeling of bliss. How would you judge a scientist who imposed the most horrific suffering on millions of people, as unwilling subjects of his experiment, but who offered some of his victims of the magic pills when it was over?
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2596
The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday
by cofty inyesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.
we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.
they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.
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sunny23
I don't know wheich positions have been rehashed here, but the one that I tend to lean towards is that suffering is crucial to the development of humans as beings who will eventually "be like god". -Ps
This statement means that Jesus wasn't "like God" until he suffered his agonizing death. This statment also means that angels in heaven are not "like God" because they have not suffered. In Genesis God said "Look, man has become like one of us." Also didn't Jesus say "If you have seen me, you have seen the father?"
I think you want to imply "discomfort" instead of "suffering." When I think of suffering I think of things that will cause lasting physical and/or mental damage to a person. Anything less than that would just be "discomfort" in my opinion. If you believe that actual suffering is crucial to all people then please do NOT have kids!