Posts by sunny23

49

Faith - Virtue or Vice?

by nicolaou in

faith gives you permission to believe that jesus actually did feed thousands with a few loaves & fishes, walk on water and rise from the grave.

all the evidence proves that none of this happened so why persist with faith?

why be dishonest with yourself?

Donnye, There are supporting reasons for each of the bulleted items i listed already in this thread. I was simply summing them up briefly. I see you don't care to offer any substance to this thread, perhaps at least read it? And everyone shouldgive supporting reasonings to validate themselves. Otherwise, we would all just be spouting off baseless phrases without expounding on them. All of JW literature, especially books like the Insight, Reasoning, etc, are there to give supporting reasonings to validate their opinions and interpretations of the bible. You seem to want to only ask people about their struggles with faith on this thread. Offer something if you have something please, i'm intrigued.

CL, Lisa didn't say anything untrue or irrelevant to this thread. The OP may have been directed mostly at belief type of faith but pointing out that theists will wrongfully try and attribute trust type of faith to God is not uncalled for so much as to need "calling out" like you did. Seems like nit-picking really. If anything she was actually agreeing with your statement that "Having "faith" in a person because they have demonstrated their trustworthiness in the past is non equvical[to having faith in GOD]" Re-read her post and tell me that it doesn't agree with this. She's just stating it in different words.

I like what Terry said about Faith on your topic CodedLogic Is Faith Immoral?

"Faith is a component of survival in the self-aware.

A pathway may not be in evidence to get from point A to point B, so what remains to allow progess?

Faith allows forward momentum where a stall might otherwise be indicated.

The success comes down to a simple demonstration:

DO NOT TRY (because evidence suggests failure will occur)=NULL RESULT. Not trying guarantees failure.

TRY (even if no possibility in evidence)=POSSIBLE success. (Only those who try get a crack at what they desire.)

_________________________________

If you are alone on an island, there are no moral acts beyond maintaining life itself.

To NOT TRY to maintain life (build a fire, make a "HELP" sign out of rocks, search for food, go fishing, attempt to purify sea water, etc.) is immoral.

To give up HOPE is to condemn yourself to non-existence.

FAITH is a form of HOPE.

Hope says, "I will maintain a positive outlook and effort even though I acknowledge the possibility of failure."

Faith says, "I am absolutely convinced things will turn out for the best no matter what comes."

Faith is irrational, but has the side-effect of giving you a fighting chance."

49

Faith - Virtue or Vice?

by nicolaou in

faith gives you permission to believe that jesus actually did feed thousands with a few loaves & fishes, walk on water and rise from the grave.

all the evidence proves that none of this happened so why persist with faith?

why be dishonest with yourself?

sunny23

I think a more complete answer would be to say that:

Faith as defined in my earlier post, can be a vice OR a virtue in #1 depending on who the trust is put upon and quality of evidence used.

Example: Faith #1 aka "trust" in many new people on little/no evidence can more readily be a vice than faith in your best friend you have known a long time and have demonstrated evidence for trusting in them for something (which can more readily be a virtue)

Faith as defined in my earlier post can be a vice OR a virtue in #2 depending on which doctrines are believed and how closely they follow or support adherance to universally accepted morals (ie no murder/rape/etc)

Example: Faith #2 aka "belief" in a God or scripture that tells you to kill those who don't believe what you do can more readily be a vice than belief in a God or scripture that tells you to love everyone including your enemies and provide for the sick/poor (which can more readily be a virtue).

Thus Faith in both definitions can be a vice or a virtue dependent upon where it is placed and to what degree one acts upon it.

60

Accuracy of the Revised NWT

by dabster in

i was speaking with a jw yesterday.

i'd previously mentioned the removal of the brackets around 'other' in colossians 1 making the mistranslation complete.

during our chat he said that the previous edition of the nwt was the more correct one, that the revised version was simply more readable and that it shouldn't be considered the best translation.

sunny23

It's agreed by most scholars that those verses were likely inserted after the original writing, sunny23:

I knew that, i'm just pointing out the large amount of "false" scripture thats been in their bible from day 1 and has been denied by scholars for years. The Org that thinks it's lightyears ahead of everyone elses findings, doctrines, reasoning, etc has major faults they are still fixing. This whole time they have been touting the "all scriptures is inspired" phrase has been a lie, idiots.

60

Accuracy of the Revised NWT

by dabster in

i was speaking with a jw yesterday.

i'd previously mentioned the removal of the brackets around 'other' in colossians 1 making the mistranslation complete.

during our chat he said that the previous edition of the nwt was the more correct one, that the revised version was simply more readable and that it shouldn't be considered the best translation.

sunny23

First thing I noticed about it was the entire first 11 verses of John Ch8 being REMOVED. Maybe over enough time they will start to realize more and more of the bible events never actually happened or are not divinely inspired until there is no bible left..HA! Also the timeline pictures in the very back mentioning 1914 as a "sure" date is real ballsy...and inaccurate.

49

Faith - Virtue or Vice?

by nicolaou in

faith gives you permission to believe that jesus actually did feed thousands with a few loaves & fishes, walk on water and rise from the grave.

all the evidence proves that none of this happened so why persist with faith?

why be dishonest with yourself?

sunny23

EDIT: when I said "because of #2 requiring proof and there is non for God."

Meant to say "because of #1 being proof based and #2 apprehension based and there is no proof for God."

250

Biblical Prohecies That Came True?

by Viviane in

recently there have been several claims made regarding prophecies that came true.

i've not personally seen a prophecy that i would consider as having come true.

i would consider the following as the requirements to say something is a prophecy and evaluate whether or not it came true:.

sunny23

This was not a good thread to read IMO, and confess I did not read it all.

Kate xx

Haha thats like ebert &roper saying "that movie was the worst we have seen all year, and we confess we did not watch it at all." Gee thanks for that.

I feel that for those who are not well versed enough in the bible to remember and identify all of the details of each prophecy because they spent more time daydreaming during bookstudy nights than listening, can benefit from a thread like this when you have family members trying to "prove" the bible is inspired by God because ALL of His prophecies came true to the last "T." Thank you to all who actually contributed. Marked

11

I am curious from a comment made, were there any protests and any conventions this year?

by nonjwspouse in

i don't recall reaading on here about any.. i just wondered if any actually happened?.

.

oops i misspelled "at" in the title.

sunny23

The entrance to our neighborhood is passed by 4 congs to get to their hall 200 yds from our house. Thought about making JWFACTS.COM signs and putting them where neighborhood garage sale signs go. Its a small road and wouldn't be missed by any. Has anyone else tried this?

49

Faith - Virtue or Vice?

by nicolaou in

faith gives you permission to believe that jesus actually did feed thousands with a few loaves & fishes, walk on water and rise from the grave.

all the evidence proves that none of this happened so why persist with faith?

why be dishonest with yourself?

sunny23

CL if there is one thing I have learned from Viviane, it's to know your EXACT definitions and state your points clearly and concisely!

faith

LisaRose in her first post initially adressed the #1 type of faith using the friend analogy and its general acceptance and then contrasted it with the WRONG use of it when applying it (#1) to God because of #2 requiring proof and there is non for God. She was never "transposing the meaning of faith onto the word 'trust'" She was only contrasting the use of #1 and #2 by theists and I feel her post was fine. She is saying there is NO reason for believers to put faith #1 OR #2 in God and yet many believers THINK there is reason to put faith #1 AND #2 in God. Just because this thread might be more about #2 doesn't mean you can't adress #1 and how believers try to attribute it to God because THAT is relevant to this thread and IS one definition of "faith." That's what I get out of it. I'll admit I did at first get the same feeling you did in making wrong assumptions as you read it. Although CL never actually accused LisaRose of having religious faith so idk where that came from, he doesn't have problems with logic (here anyway), I think it's a misunderstanding of definitions and misinterpreting a post, or two. This forum/site taught me to come to agreements on exact definitions before you make accusations.

Ok done mediating, lets talk about vices of faith, Donnye, where did you go?

49

Faith - Virtue or Vice?

by nicolaou in

faith gives you permission to believe that jesus actually did feed thousands with a few loaves & fishes, walk on water and rise from the grave.

all the evidence proves that none of this happened so why persist with faith?

why be dishonest with yourself?

sunny23

donnye, what do you have to offer to this thread on Faith? Offer your own opinions on this topic.

So far it has been said that faith in God specifically:

Is NOT like faith in a friend you might have and can see physically
Comes from fear of death and hope for more
Can make a person misperceive value of life
Causes one to be vulnerable and easily decieved
Shouldn't logically be required for salvation

What are your thoughts to these claims and give supporting reasoning please.

49

Faith - Virtue or Vice?

by nicolaou in

faith gives you permission to believe that jesus actually did feed thousands with a few loaves & fishes, walk on water and rise from the grave.

all the evidence proves that none of this happened so why persist with faith?

why be dishonest with yourself?

sunny23

you're welcome Simon

IslandMan that's a great point: faith is useless and counterproductive to the powerful who desire to be followed in a specific way.

The concept of requiring FAITH for SALVATION is silly. Apply it to firefighters. If God was a firefighter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSZqH0Ms4ds