Where is their Scriptural proof? (page 2)

greendawn

Who can trust the theology of a group of self appointed religious leaders when their history is packed with erroneous explanations something that proves their inability to correctly understand and interpret deep spiritual issues.

Those that embraced their shallow, cheap and erratic theology ended up getting seriously misguided, bewildered, and frustrated. Likewise the judgement issue is too structured and complicated for them to grasp correctly.

It would have been better for people assuming high religious office to spend a few years studying religion at university level preferably at doctorate level.

littlerockguy

DF'd

What about 1 Tim 2:6 saying the ransom was for ALL and if it was for all how is his ransom just limited for some and not others?

Ingenuous

Watchtower 1982 April 1 p. 27 Para. 6 [quotes.watchtower.ca]:

... unrepentant apostates go, at death, not to Sheol, or Hades, but to Gehenna. (Hebrews 6:4-8; 2 Peter 2:1) The same is true of dedicated Christians who persist in willful sin or those who "shrink back." (Hebrews 10:26-31, 38, 39) These are merely examples to show that some, even in "this system of things," have committed the sin for which there is no forgiveness, not even in the system of things "to come." (Matthew 12:31, 32; compare 1 John 5:16.) They will, therefore, not be resurrected.

blondie

A Blast from the Past

"Unquestionably"? 1914 or a future date?

*** w95 10/15 p. 22 How Will You Stand Before the Judgment Seat? ***

If we analyze Jesus’ activity in the parable, we observe him finally judging all the nations. The parable does not show that such judging would continue over an extended period of many years, as if every person dying during these past decades were judged worthy of everlasting death or everlasting life. It seems that the majority who have died in recent decades have gone to mankind’s common grave. (Revelation 6:8; 20:13) The parable, though, depicts the time when Jesus judges the people of "all the nations" who are then alive and facing the execution of his judicial sentence.

In other words, the parable points to the future when the Son of man will come in his glory. He will sit down to judge people then living. His judgment will be based on what they have manifested themselves to be. At that time "the distinction between a righteous one and a wicked one" will have been clearly established. (Malachi 3:18) The actual pronouncing and executing of judgment will be carried out in a limited time. Jesus will render just decisions based on what has become evident about individuals.—See also 2 Corinthians 5:10.

** w52 6/1 p. 341 Fixing Destinies in This Judgment Period ***

WE unquestionably enter a judgment period upon the second presence of Christ. Judgment began at the house of God, cleansed the anointed remnant of Babylonish filth, released them from Babylonish bondage, enabled them to flee greater Babylon to escape sharing in her plagues. They were freed to preach, to herald the establishment of the heavenly kingdom, to sound a warning of the impending "accomplished end": "This good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for the purpose of a witness to all the nations, and then the accomplished end will come." (Matt. 24:14, 21, 22; 1 Pet. 4:17, NW) This enlightenment brought responsibility and laid a foundation for judgment: "Now this is the basis for judgment, that the light has come into the world." (John 3:19-21, NW) Hence the judgment that started at the house of God spread to take in all peoples of all nations, as Jesus had said it would at his second presence: "When the Son of man arrives in his glory and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. And all the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will put the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left." The sheep who showed kindness to Christ’s brothers inherit new world blessings, but the goats who refused kindness to them go off "into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels". Christ’s judgment is: "These will depart into everlasting cutting-off, but the righteous ones into everlasting life." The goats remain in greater Babylon and share her plagues; the sheep belong to God and live by heeding the command: "Get out of her, my people."—Matt. 25:31-46, NW.

This judgment period will be completed during this generation, and when the execution of judgment starts at Armageddon the destinies of all persons then living will have been fixed. Some become perturbed over this, and speculate on the existence of a third class not separated into sheep and goat categories, and which will be resurrected in the millennium for its judgment period. Into this third class they would put all babes and children, and any adults not reached by the Kingdom message by the time Armageddon strikes. Such speculators can produce no solid Scriptural support for their theory. It seems to be spawned either by human sentiment over creature salvation or by a negative, defeatist attitude toward a successful completion of the preaching work. Or by both.

And with the changing of their theory in 1995, what solid Scriptural support did they have

To all nations, throughout the inhabited earth, the witness given will be sufficient to meet Jehovah’s purpose, and it will be completed before the "accomplished end" or Armageddon comes. This witness will provide the basis for the judgment wherein the people of all nations are separated into sheep and goat classes, by Christ Jesus. Will Christ the Judge do a halfway job? Will he fail to complete the job outlined for him, and have an unforetold third class left over that he failed to separate? Or will he complete the dividing work Jehovah committed to him, and separate the people of all nations into just the two foretold classes, and thereby accomplish the divine purpose and fulfill the divine word?

This judgment period from 1914 to Armageddon is set aside for this separation work and is a part of the sign that we are in "the time of the end". Will Christ loiter at the separation work, so that he will have to finish it in a future judgment day, and fail to fully provide this part of the sign? Some argue that the parable of the sheep and goats applies on into the millennium. They ignore the fact that the separation is complete before the sheep inherit the new world blessings of the millennial reign, that this separation takes place when he arrives, not centuries thereafter. Nations exist; there will be no such divisions along national lines in the new world. The judgment work assigned to this period must be completed before execution starts at Armageddon. Judgment at the house of God was completed, not left half done; so will it be with the judgment of the nations during the same judgment period.

In harmony with the illustration of the sheep and goats, Ezekiel 9:4-6 (AT) shows but two classes, those marked for preservation and the unmarked ones appointed to destruction. And in this prophetic picture of Armageddon’s slaughter note that the executional forces do not spare individuals on the grounds of age or sex: "Slay without mercy or pity. Old men, young men and maidens, little children and women—strike them all dead! But touch no one on whom is the mark." Note that in this picture the ones preserved are those who did "sigh and cry for all the abominations" done in the land in reproach of Jehovah’s true worship. In the parable of sheep and goats the ones preserved showed favor toward Christ’s brothers. In both cases the ones destroyed were those who remained indifferent or neutral as well as opposers. Christ Jesus, during the judgment period when he was on earth, laid down the principle for such times: "He that is not on my side is against me, and he that does not gather with me scatters." (Matt. 12:30, NW) No room remains for a third class.

COMMUNITY

RESPONSIBILITY

In view of the eternalness of the destruction of those slain by Jehovah at Armageddon, some will ask about those who may not personally hear the message, especially in some lands that prohibit the witness work. In addition to family responsibility the Bible shows a communal or community responsibility, where a community upholds or goes along with rulers that persecute Jehovah’s people or are otherwise wicked. Did not the Egyptians suffer plagues because of Pharaoh’s hardness? (Ex. 5:1, 2; 9:13-16) Did not the Amalekites suffer for generations afterward because of Amalek’s opposition to Israel in the wilderness? (Ex. 17:8, 14, 16) King Saul brought trouble on Israel years after his death. (2 Sam. 21:1) David’s sins brought punishment upon the people. (2 Sam. 12:10-23; 24:10-17) Some relate some of this to ruler punishment rather than community responsibility, but it does show how the sins of one can affect many. It was unquestionably community responsibility when Achan trespassed and brought a military defeat on Israel. (Josh. 7:5, 13-21) Wicked men brought destruction upon the entire city of Gibeah, and those who supported Gibeah or merely refrained from helping punish her suffered with her. (Judg. 19:22-30; 20:40; 21:9, 10) Because King Jehoram of Judah deflected from God the nation went wrong and was punished. (2 Chron. 21:11-15) If idolatry started in a city in Israel and corrupted the inhabitants the city was destroyed. And other examples could be given. (Gen. 12:17; 20:9, 17; 26:10; Deut. 13:12-18) Matthew 10:14, 15, 23 shows households or cities that are unreceptive to the message will find judgment day unendurable. The principle applies on a national scale also.

The people must accept responsibility for the nation’s acts. If the government becomes too oppressive against them they oust it, by either ballots or bullets. But wickedness against God they placidly tolerate. To them personal convenience and liberty are more precious than godliness. They revolt from harsh rulers, but support godless ones. They lack the burning love for righteousness and the devouring hate for wickedness that would consume the corruption and immorality now rampant in all human governments. Rulers and ruled wallow in the trough of an international moral breakdown. (2 Tim. 3:1-5) Nations operate according to the principle of community responsibility. Rulers may start wars, but the people fight them. It is upon the people generally, young and old, male and female, that the enemy nation rains destruction, and not upon the wicked rulers. The nations in their wars sow death on the basis of community responsibility. Will it not be just for them to reap it on the same basis at Armageddon? Can they rightly complain if they reap as they sow, are judged as they judged, are shown the same mercy they showed? If the people either actively or passively support what is corrupt and immoral and murderous, do they not bear some responsibility therefor?—Matt. 5:7; 7:1, 2; Gal. 6:7; Jas. 2:13.

Actually, the majority of the people today lack a love for right and hate for wrong. They know the world is corrupt to the core. Yet they are apparently satisfied with it. At least they stick with it, and scoff when Jehovah’s witnesses expose it. They seem to "love to have it so". (Jer. 5:31; 6:13) The corruption around them gives license to their own lusts, deadens any feeble protests of anemic consciences, scuttles any remaining scruples. They fear only punishment, not evil-doing: "Because the sentence upon an evil deed is not quickly executed, therefore the minds of the sons of men are fully determined to do evil." (Eccl. 8:11, AT) They do not zealously "seek righteousness", nor do they "sigh and cry" because of any offended sense of righteousness, but only when wrongs curb or halt their pursuit of selfish ends. (Ezek. 9:4; Zeph. 2:3) They are repelled by Jehovah’s message because it demands a separation from this corrupt, immoral, pleasure-mad world.

Some argue that ignorance is an excuse that will gain a resurrection for many of Armageddon’s slain, such as those perishing because of community responsibility. They will cite Paul’s case. That former persecutor said: "I was shown mercy, because I was ignorant and acted with a lack of faith." But he was shown this mercy during a judgment period, and did not spurn it. He used it to eliminate his ignorance and build up his faith. This show of mercy was also for another reason, to demonstrate divine long-suffering. (1 Tim. 1:12-16, NW) So to say Paul was saved because of his ignorance is wrong. Because he acted in ignorance repentance was possible for him, he had not unforgivably sinned against knowledge or the manifestation of the holy spirit. The world is full of Bibles, in more than 1,125 languages, and a glance at its pages is sufficient to convict the world’s conduct. But the masses of people remain ignorant "according to their wish". (2 Pet. 3:5, NW) In some past times ignorance was overlooked by God, but it is not so during a judgment period, whether it be the one in Noah’s day, or Lot’s day, or Jesus’ day, or our day, or during the millennium. That is the point Paul was making when he said: "True, God has overlooked the times of such ignorance, yet now he is telling mankind that they should all everywhere repent." Why? "Because he has set a day in which he purposes to judge the inhabited earth." (Acts 17:30, 31, NW) As previously stated, that day for most men will be the millennial reign; but others have had or are having their judgment period earlier. Such periods are no time for ignorance, but for repentance.

WHY WE WITNESS NOW

If ignorance during this present judgment period is an excuse and is going to mean a resurrection for ignorant ones in the millennial reign, would it not be advantageous to let all remain ignorant now? If all those not personally preached to now and who are slain by Jehovah at Armageddon are going to return in the resurrection of mankind, why preach now at all? Even those who oppose the view that all Armageddon’s slain are forever dead will admit that those hearing but not accepting the witness now will perish eternally at Armageddon. Just for the sake of reasoning together, adopt their view for a moment. We preach to one thousand persons now, and perhaps one accepts the truth, while all the others reject it and die forever at Armageddon. But if we refrained from preaching to this one thousand, all would die at Armageddon but all would return in a resurrection, not having heard the message. Surely when they returned in that new world far advanced toward perfect paradise, with no corrupting humans around and demonic influence gone, so our opposers would incline to think and say, many more than one of that thousand would conform to new world requirements. Maybe only one would refuse. So why preach now and save one out of a thousand? Why not be silent now and save 999 out of a thousand?

20 That, of course, would be folly. It would mean eternal destruction for the witness who remained silent. It means the stones would cry out the warning, if the watchman class failed to do so. (Ezek. 33:7-9; Luke 19:40) The gospel-preaching is going to be done earth-wide, for Jehovah says so. And whether it is done on the basis of personal or family or community responsibility, the peoples of all nations are going to be separated into "sheep" and "goat" classes, for Jehovah says so. Those whom he slays at Armageddon will remain forever dead, for his prophetic pictures made at the time of the Flood and at the time of Sodom and Gomorrah’s destruction say so, along with the parable of the sheep and goats. This view is corroborated by John 5:28, 29 (NW): "The hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out."

Those who are disturbed by this view of matters should remember several points. First, if Jehovah destroyed everyone there would be no injustice involved, since none has any inherent right to life. Second, the witness work will be done to the extent he deems necessary for separating all peoples and he will make no mistake. Did he not know before Noah ever preached or built that no others would join Noah and his household in the ark? Did he not know before Lot preached or angels performed miracles in Sodom that there were not even ten righteous ones there? Long before we can determine the bent of man’s mind toward sheeplikeness or goatlikeness Jehovah and Christ can judge and divide without making mistakes.

Sad emo

Now what, you seemed a little surprised by the following:

but a person can add to that by his own deliberate, willful course of sin, and he can thus die for such sin that is beyond coverage by the ransom.

I think that there is scriptural reasoning for this:

New Revised Standard Version

Hebrews ch.6:

4 .

For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit,

5 .

and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come,

6 .

and then have fallen away, since on their own they are crucifying again the Son of God and are holding him up to contempt.

Plus what about the 'unforgivable sin' against the Holy Spirit ?

upside/down

Scriptures?....We don't need no steeeenking scriptures!

u/d

THE GLADIATOR

Hey! Who upset the little monkey?

He make s good point though and I like the way he spells steeeenking.

Now What?

Sad Emo, you are very right that I was surprised at this statement.

To me those passages in Hebrews 6 are referring to the unforgivable sin, which is also what I am reading in that quote from the insight book.

I see the unforgivable sin as saying that there is such a thing as a sin so great that it cannot be forgiven, not by the Son, neither by the Father, nor by Holy Spirit. Having a total disbelief that the sacrifice of the crucifixion was indeed all encompassing. That it was limited, restricted and therefore imperfect in some way. And so in this way Christ's death would not be one of sacrificial glory for all sins but rather one that the Jewish authorities intended, one of shame and contempt (because it is unable to cover all sins).

What I see in this wt statement is declaring the cross(stake) as a legal instument and not as a throne. I guess my reaction comes from the paradigm that I hope Hell to be mostly empty whereas from this it seems the wt envisions their Gehenna to be mostly full.

Btw, I am not trying to be antagonistic, but just sharing what I was thinking when I read that.

Now What?

Def'd, Thanks for responding.

Would you care to add some additional commentary on why you feel that the resurrection is limited? Of course, you don't have to, but I am curious since I believe in a large, total resurrection.

Now What?

Blondie, as usual, you always find a great article to look at.

The last line struck me as I just had a discussion with an elderly pioneer sister about the topic of the last sentance:

Long before we can determine the bent of man’s mind toward sheeplikeness or goatlikeness Jehovah and Christ can judge and divide without making mistakes.

It seems now the common view within the cong is Jehovah doing the judging. It was once Christ and here we see the shift from just Christ to Jehovah and Christ. I am seeing Christ systematically removed/reduced from the whole resurrection theology.

I find this very unsettling.

Where is their Scriptural proof?

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