If absolute proof proved the bible Jesus true....would you be happy?

by gumby 57 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    hmike,

    The book of Job explicitly deals with the issue you are raising -- about "God," not Jesus, of course. Here is chapter 9 for instance (chapter 13 is very similar and worth reading too).

    "Indeed I know that this is so;
    but how can a mortal be just before God?
    If one wished to contend with him,
    one could not answer him once in a thousand.
    He is wise in heart, and mighty in strength
    --who has resisted him, and succeeded?--
    he who removes mountains, and they do not know it,
    when he overturns them in his anger;
    who shakes the earth out of its place,
    and its pillars tremble;
    who commands the sun, and it does not rise;
    who seals up the stars;
    who alone stretched out the heavens
    and trampled the waves of the Sea;
    who made the Bear and Orion,
    the Pleiades and the chambers of the south;
    who does great things beyond understanding,
    and marvelous things without number.
    Look, he passes by me, and I do not see him;
    he moves on, but I do not perceive him.
    He snatches away; who can stop him?
    Who will say to him, 'What are you doing?'
    "God will not turn back his anger;
    the helpers of Rahab bowed beneath him.
    How then can I answer him,
    choosing my words with him?
    Though I am innocent, I cannot answer him;
    I must appeal for mercy to my accuser.
    If I summoned him and he answered me,
    I do not believe that he would listen to my voice.
    For he crushes me with a tempest,
    and multiplies my wounds without cause;
    he will not let me get my breath,
    but fills me with bitterness.
    If it is a contest of strength, he is the strong one!
    If it is a matter of justice, who can summon him?
    Though I am innocent, my own mouth would condemn me
    ;
    though I am blameless, he would prove me perverse.
    I am blameless; I do not know myself;
    I loathe my life.
    It is all one; therefore I say,
    he destroys both the blameless and the wicked. When disaster brings sudden death,
    he mocks at the calamity of the innocent.
    The earth is given into the hand of the wicked;
    he covers the eyes of its judges--
    if it is not he, who then is it?
    "My days are swifter than a runner;
    they flee away, they see no good.
    They go by like skiffs of reed,
    like an eagle swooping on the prey.
    If I say, 'I will forget my complaint;
    I will put off my sad countenance and be of good cheer,'
    I become afraid of all my suffering,
    for I know you will not hold me innocent.
    I shall be condemned;
    why then do I labor in vain?
    If I wash myself with soap
    and cleanse my hands with lye,
    yet you will plunge me into filth,
    and my own clothes will abhor me.
    For he is not a mortal, as I am, that I might answer him,
    that we should come to trial together.
    There is no umpire between us,
    who might lay his hand on us both.
    If he would take his rod away from me,
    and not let dread of him terrify me,
    then I would speak without fear of him,
    for I know I am not what I am thought to be.

    The point being, such a "God" is just only inasmuch as might is right. He can only be praised like a tyrant.

    For any moral "explaining" to occur obviously "God" would have not to scare his creatures. And if he does there is no real point in ascribing him any justice, or any other moral quality for that matter.

    The weak force of man is that he can however stand up and speak while he provisionally emerges from dread. And he can, as Job elsewhere says, carve his words onto the rock as a testimony even against the gods. This is the fate of the tragic hero. In some ways the Gospel Jesus assumes a similar role. If you make it another frightening "God" you just make it another tyrant -- against whom we will have to stand up.

  • Cygnus
    Cygnus

    That question, to me, is like asking: if Vishnu, Shiva and Brahma were proved absolutely true.... would you be happy?

    I.e., the question itself (not the questioner!) is absurd. But, to play the game, no it wouldn't make me any happier or sadder. Whether gods exist or not doesn't matter to me. I would still live my life as I see fit, and if Jesus kills me or sends me to hell for it, so be it.

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Didier:Being awestruck surely doesn't always have to include fear and fright.

  • hmike
    hmike

    Agreed with LT. Terror is only one of the many possible reactions. Under those circumstances, I just think any kind of arrogance would melt away.

    I expect that most critics here think they would ask Jesus, "Why didn't you make things clearer for us?" Jesus would point to the faithful and say, "It was clear enough for them. Why not you too?"

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Ross,

    I sure see what you mean.

    Anyway -- and here I'm willfully playing the 's advocate -- the result is the same, as far as the moral debate with God illustrated in Job is concerned: it can be construed as silencing opposition. This, indeed, needs not be cruel. A modern tyrant might find a thoroughly painless, even euphorising, way of turning opposers into enthusiastic supporters. To a modern mind that would not be much better morally. The questions written in the rock while the opposers were not yet convinced would still remain -- just as the final silencing of Job leaves his former arguments unanswered.

    This, interestingly, leads back to our rambling thread on how the logos was/is with God. To me the underlying antagonism cannot be solved in silent bliss. The Hebrew Bible contains many examples of antagonistic debate with "God" (Abraham, Moses, Jeremiah or Jonah, although less vocal than Job, offer other interesting examples). Modern literature (Doestoevsky for instance) offers many more.

  • FlyingHighNow
    FlyingHighNow

    Which Bible, Gumby? The one the Catholic Church decided we'd get? Or the one that would include all the books they left out? Like for instance the gnostic gospels?

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Didier:I've got visions of us both in our nineties still playing devil's advocate in our communications to each other - LOL

    I like your comments on antagonism

    I also knew there was a thread that I'd neglected recently, but couldn't remember which one. Alas, I'm about to hit the sack, but I'll try to get back to it soon

  • hmike
    hmike
    The Hebrew Bible contains many examples of antagonistic debate with "God" (Abraham, Moses, Jeremiah or Jonah, although less vocal than Job, offer other interesting examples).

    We see God accepts questioning--even venting of frustration--from his faithful--those who have faith greater than the problems caused by the issues they are dealing with. The wisdom and the will of God prevail, nevertheless.

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