My First Doubt

by tall penguin 35 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Oroborus21
    Oroborus21


    Very good clarifications Narkisssos. My point about Judah was that his intentions were not a sin standing withing the context of his time.

    Of course today, we would call it a sin.

    As I alluded to in my post, these things are like many other things including polygamy which was an acceptable situation with the revered Patriarchs.

    I believe that the Bible is relevant for informing us and for guiding us in our daily living but we must keep in mind these aspects, its cultural context and refrain from taking anything too literally. The bible is more valuable as a source of principles than in defining specific moral precepts or "laws" to live by. This is because the bible is only the record of the revelation of God's relationship to mankind and not the actual revelation, which is a common misunderstanding.

    I wanted to point out that the "Outrage at Gibbeah" episode (Judges 19-21) (alluded to by "Jeeprube") is most likely either a complete fabrication or it is anachronistic. Several points of evidence suggest the first possibility which I won't bother to delineate here so as not to hijack this thread.

    -Eduardo Leaton Jr., Esq.

  • RunningMan
    RunningMan

    Well, the Bible's stand on fornication makes perfect sense, if you understand it properly. You see, it was forbidden to have sex with any person to whom you are not married, with the following exceptions: multiple wives, concubines, slave girls, next of kin, and prostitutes. It was also OK to sell your wife to a foreign king, as long as you thought it might save your neck. But, in all other cases, fornication was wrong.

  • Nate Merit
    Nate Merit

    The Bible is full of so many contradictions and discrepencies you cannot avoid them if you read the Bible itself rather than merely books about the Bible. This is one of the reasons the WTBTS discourages it's members from reading the Bible directly, or from studying it without Watchtower aid of some kind. At least, when I was a JW over thirty years ago that was the policy. The Roman Catholic Church, of course, was just as strict with its members, but no one saw any similarity. I did.

    All sorts of things were my "first doubt" about the WTBTS, but I successfully beat these terrible 'mental demons' into submission, and this allowed me to stay in the New World Society until I was shown the door. A few that I recall offhand:

    Church steeples and wedding rings. I recall reading an article about the pagan origins of church steeples. They were borrowed from 'pagan' phallic worship, hence were unclean and unfit for Jehovah's Sparkling Clean Org to use. Then, an article about wedding rings that demonsrated their pagan origin, but excused their use on the grounds they no longer possessed the pagan connotations. Evem at age fifteen I knew this was inconsistent. A church steeple no longer carries any phallic connotations either.

    In every instance in the NT where the Greek words "ego eimi" occur, the NWT renders it properly as "I am" except for John 8:58 where it is rendered in the NWT: "Before Abraham was born I have been." There is absolutely no linguistic reason for any other translation than "I am." Of course, such a rendering would identify Jesus with Deity, so it couldn't be allowed to be accurately translated. The usual WTBTS smoke generator was used to confuse and confound the issue.

    John 1:1, "a god." The convoluted argument for this translation, based on the lack of the definite article ho before theos, was just too much. As I recall, the argument was that since the definite article is lacking when theos is applied to the Logos, it should be rendered "a god." I found this to be an obvious bit of translational bigotry when I looked at 2 Corinthians 4:4 with my Kingdom Interlinear and discovered that Satan is referred to as "ho theos" (THE God of ths Aion, or Age/Eon). Yet the NWT 'translators' do not render it as The God as they should because of the presence of the definite article. Instead it's rendered "the god." (For those of you who are unaware, the earliest Greek manuscripts of the NT, called Uncials, were written in all capitals, so one cannot make an appeal to the Greek text as to whether one should capitalize "theos" in this verse or not) I brought this up so many times I was eventually told to shut up, though not in those exact words.

    On a humorous note, when I was a JW the New English Bible was very much all the rage among the friends in San Jose. The NEB rendering of John 1:1 is "What God was the Word was." This was held up to me by one of the elders as a magnificent translation of this verse (which it is), as if it somehow supported the grotesque and indefensible "a god" rendering of the NWT. Out loud, in the presence of many, my seventeen year old self pointed out to the elder that such a translation of John 1:1 did not support the NWT. He looked at me, obviously puzzled, so I said "God is eternal, infinite, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, so if the Logos is what God is, then the Logos is also these things." A shocked look came over his face and he didn't say a word. No one in my unit ever brought up the NEB again.

    I realized this guy wasn't the brightest bulb on the tree by a thousand miles.

    I was again, in essence, told to shut up when I kept bringing Isaiah 43:10-11 to everyone's attention, where it says "before me there was no god formed and neither shall there be after me." I would juxtapose this with John 1:1 in the NWT where it reads "a god" and ask them to reconcile these verses. Are we polytheists? I would ask. No one could reconcile the two verses in anything but a convoluted manner full of mental gymnastics, verbal contortions, and special pleading. I was not impressed.

    "System of things." This is an excellent translation of Kosmos. It is ridiculous, however, to use this phrase to translate aion as the NWT often does, such as in 2 Cor 4:4. Aion means an aeon or eon, an age, epoch, era, long (but finite) period of time. It has no relationship with kosmos. I am unsure what doctrinal reasons the WTBTS has for hiding the time aspect of aion, but I'm sure it's something they consider dangerous and do not want the 'rank n file' to know about.

    To stay a JW one must shut down one's mind, hand it over to the WTBTS and tell them "Here, do my thinking for me and fill my brain with whatever gabble and nonsense you like."

    Nate

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    The problem comes with trying to defend the Bible as a single comprehensive work composed by a benevolent God. I've seen the worst mental gymnastics by both Evangelicals AND Witnesses trying to reconcile it's various bits in to cohesiveness. Good guys that had God's blessings must have had SOME good motive for all the stupid things they did, right? Worst to read are the Watchtower articles that speculate on what the good motives might have been for doing stupid things. I think this mental pretzling are lead-ups for the gymnastics that JW's use to excuse bad behaviour found in the hall. Like cruel elders not removed, or pedophiles not disfellowshipped. All we get is an anaemic, "Ah, well, we must wait on Jehovah." If Joshua or Samson or Gideon or David had "Waited on Jehovah", there would not have been any Isreal to fuss over.

    If you read the bible account as it stands, not trying to make it in to more than it is, the bits make a lot more sense. Like others have already said, Joseph's primary concern was that he did not want to STEAL HIS MASTER'S PROPERTY. He was ethically motivated, not just the way we are today. I DON'T HAVE TO COVER MY HEAD when I get together with other believers. It made sense in the first century, it doesn't any more.

  • Nate Merit
    Nate Merit

    Hi jgnat

    All excellent reasons for treating the Bible for what it is; a delightful book of Mythology that should be interpreted accordingly. I like you phrase "mental pretzeling." I hereby store it away for future use. Thank you.

    Nate

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    As mentioned, men were people, and women were property. And so, jenovah saw no wrong in judah having sex w unclaimed property, the righteous chump.

    S

  • doofdaddy
    doofdaddy

    Don't forget righteous Lot who offered his virgin daughters to a crazed mob to "do as you will with them"......

  • Darth Yhwh
    Darth Yhwh

    My first doubts came early in life. I can remember being 8 or 9 and asking myself, how can I as a JW have the only "true" religion when by best friends Mike and Matt across the street make the same claim? Critical thinking in elementary school. How do you like that?

  • Scully
    Scully
    Thus it was not a sin for Judah to go to a prostitute under both social customs/taboos of the time and later under Mosaic law. Only with the advent of Christianity (and beginning during the Maccabbean period of Judaism) did it start to become socially taboo to either be a prostitute or to go to one.

    Yet it was a sin under the Mosaic Law for Tamar to be pregnant out of wedlock and subject to the death penalty, even though her "act of prostitution" was socially acceptable and even morally acceptable given the Law on Levirite marriage??

    It's a good thing she kept Judah's signet ring... she knew what the consequences would be if Judah was successful in denying that he had been with her. And why would he deny being with her anyway, if going to a prostitute was socially acceptable? Why would he not recognize his own daughter-in-law once they were engaged in sexual intimacies? Surely he wasn't blind!!

  • onacruse
    onacruse

    tp, the first doubt is by far the most telling doubt, though we (read "me") often fail to see it so.

    You've been closely following my life-story, and, you can bet I'll be following yours.

    If I may offer this one observation: That first doubt, once acknowledged, within oneself, really acknowledged, becomes a consuming fire, with a very definitive termination...if one chooses to "take the slippery slope."

    Craig

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