Misinformation in CoC (page 2)

ICBehindtheCurtain

Narkissos, yes I was there, 25 years ago wow, who would have thought, with what I know now I would be labeled an apostate too! All I can say is, if Vazquez really said that in a public meeting he has all the more my respect.

I must admit, he had guts! I guess the discrepancy with his official letter might be due to the fact he didn't know he had been recorded and/or the JC didn't hold that public statement against him. Anyway, even as you relate the event this was not a formal call to break away from the organisation -- rather a desperate attempt to change it from inside.

Yes, I agree. Fwiw, the hearsay echo I had from this story in the early 80's (I was in the French Bethel then) is that most of this congregation partook in the Memorial, and this raised the suspicion of the Brooklyn Bethel when they got the figures. If the tape had been sent to Bethel right away I doubt René would have been allowed to give the Memorial talk. No it was just Vazquez and Angulo who partook, I think maybe the others that agreed with them perhaps didn't have the guts to do so. René was able to give the Memorial talk because Bethel hadn't heard about what was going on until after. So many rumors went around after that, people were saying that they formed a group and that they believed they were all going to heaven, also, that René and one of the pioneer sisters in my hall Gloria Rodriguez eventually got together and had an affair, anything to make them fit the stereotypical Apostate, sad really. IC IC

peacefulpete

I also salute anyone in his position that used the stage to express what his convictions were. I doubt he thought he was going "to get away with it" but wanted to expose the congo to what he believed before being tossed. I know a young man near me that did something very similar. Interstingly the WT had an experience years ago where a clergyman became a JW and used the pulpit to try to convert the congo, he was praised.

ICBehindtheCurtain

Cygnus wow! you have guts! I know what you mean, maybe he really wanted to help others to see the "Truth" he felt he had just uncovered, who knows. When I started this journey down the rabbit hole, also thought that the JW's werent giving Jesus Christ the importance he deserved, and that we are all sons of god, until I continued sliding further down that rabbit hole and found out the rest, what a journey it has been, now I no longer believe that the Bible is the inspired word of god, and I no longer believe in organized religion, all thanks to the Internet!

Oh, I have thought of sending Ray an email, it would be interesting to talk to him, I really do admire that man.

IC

GetBusyLiving

Hi IC, yeah I really hope you do talk to Ray about this since it's a different telling of the account than he recorded in CoC. We all know how important accuracy is as Watchtower critics. If you need his address its at www.commentarypress.com

GBL

ICBehindtheCurtain

Thanks for that GBL, I will let you all know how it goes.

IC

Narkissos

Hola IC,

Fwiw, the hearsay echo I had from this story in the early 80's (I was in the French Bethel then) is that most of this congregation partook in the Memorial, and this raised the suspicion of the Brooklyn Bethel when they got the figures. If the tape had been sent to Bethel right away I doubt René would have been allowed to give the Memorial talk. No it was just Vazquez and Angulo who partook, I think maybe the others that agreed with them perhaps didn't have the guts to do so. René was able to give the Memorial talk because Bethel hadn't heard about what was going on until after. So many rumors went around after that, people were saying that they formed a group and that they believed they were all going to heaven, also, that René and one of the pioneer sisters in my hall Gloria Rodriguez eventually got together and had an affair, anything to make them fit the stereotypical Apostate, sad really.

I guess the story I heard was from another (Spanish-speaking? NY?) congregation then, if not urban legend. It was told by a French Bethel elder who had spent a few months in Brooklyn.

This interests me, I guess, because a few years later I found myself in a similar situation. After I resigned from Bethel I was assigned as a special pioneer to a Portuguese congregation in Paris, together with a friend of mine. We both gradually dropped any use of WT literature, conducting real "Bible studies" (on the Gospels or Epistles) with families both within and outside of the congo. Our congregation talks were perhaps a bit more cautious but we sticked to the Bible. Both of us partook in the Memorial and were df'd for apostasy a few weeks after. As for the rumours... some time later I met with a former Spanish Bible study who understood we had been df'd for homosexuality (perhaps he just didn't get the word "apostasy").

ICBehindtheCurtain

Narkissos, you know what I find very interesting is that when I started reading the Bible without the WTS literature I started like you and others, feeling that I should partake not because I was of the anointed, but because I came to the understanding that it was the correct thing to do to honor Jesus Christ, I didn't get to do that however, because I saw the errors and contradictions in the Bible soon after and realized it's all bunk. As for the rumors that start when they disfellowship so called apostates, I think maybe it makes the R&F feel better about being in, and it makes the story that satan takes over when you leave true in their eyes, now however, the lurkers can see that those were just stories without any foundation.

IC

Narkissos

when I started reading the Bible without the WTS literature I started like you and others, feeling that I should partake not because I was of the anointed, but because I came to the understanding that it was the correct thing to do to honor Jesus Christ, I didn't get to do that however, because I saw the errors and contradictions in the Bible soon after and realized it's all bunk.

When we "partook" I had already reached the conclusion that the WT teaching about two classes of believers (the "anointed" vs. "non-anointed") was completely unscriptural. So I didn't feel being part of a special "class". (This of course, not the mere "partaking," was sure to condemn me in a JC hearing.) From this perspective I understand the consistency of René Vazquez' attitude as you report: had he thought he was part of a "special class" why would he try to convince others that it was for them too?

At this stage, actually, I had broken free from the fundamentalistic mindset. I had still a lot to learn about the Bible from a critical standpoint, but already my "faith" was not "based" on some heaven-sent "Scripture" anymore. I read it as a confirmation of my faith, not as its foundation.

Nate Merit

(In a MS Meeting on Tuesday back in 1980, René was conducting a part and he went up to the stage with only his bible, he started saying that all we needed was the bible, that we would no longer be using other publications by the WTS , everyone looked around at each other shocked, this also went on in the various congregation book studies that week, 8 out of 9 elders were in on it, they all were saying that all we needed was the bible, these other books were unnecessary, well, a week later was the Memorial, Vazquez gave the talk and said some weird stuff about how all christians are sons of god and other stuff that I can't remember, it was a while back, but everyone was looking over at each other and wondering what was going on. Rafael Angulo which was one of the elders and a good freind of Vazquez, partook of the emblems, so did Vazquez, everyone was very surprised to say the least, one of the sisters was outraged and marched down to Bethel to tell them about this, another person had recorded the meeting, because Vazquez was an excellent speaker and had quite a following, this tape was turned in to Bethel for evidence against Vazquez)

So, you disagree with these men telling people the truth, that they didn't need the WTBTS or it's spiritual-vomit books? Or that all Christians should be paratking of the Emblems because their is "one faith ONE HOPE?"

I know you're only speaking this way for dramatic effect, letting us know how you reacted at the time. Just having some fun. Hi!

Nate

ICBehindtheCurtain

Yes Nate , that was my reaction then, now I understand that they probably saw the printing and placing of all those books as unnecessary for a true christian, like how many books did Christ place?

I wonder if they remained christians or if they figured it out eventually.

IC

Misinformation in CoC

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