Book Study Wk 20 11/7: pg 136-144: A SMALL HORN GAINS THE ASCENDANCY

by ithinkisee 28 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Schizm

  Isn't it more logical that the divided kingdom [Greece] mentioned in chapter 8 is the same as that mentioned in chapters 2:41 and 11:4?--City Fan.

  No it's not logical. The "divided" kingdom mentioned in 2:41 is the consequence of Rome having fallen. Rome followed Greece. By the time history had progressed down into the feet of the image of Daniel 2 Greece had already passed the "torch" of Universal Rule over to Rome.

  36 “This is the dream, and its interpretation we shall say before the king. 37 You, O king [of Babylon], the king of kings, you to whom the God of heaven has given the kingdom, the might, and the strength and the dignity, 38 and into whose hand he has given, wherever the sons of mankind are dwelling, the beasts of the field and the winged creatures of the heavens, and whom he has made ruler over all of them, you yourself are the head of gold.

  39 “And after you there will rise another kingdom [Medo-Persia] inferior to you; and another kingdom [Greece], a third one, of copper, that will rule over the whole earth.

  40 “And as for the fourth kingdom [Rome], it will prove to be strong like iron. Forasmuch as iron is crushing and grinding everything else, so, like iron that shatters, it will crush and shatter even all these.

  41 “And whereas you beheld the feet and the toes to be partly of molded clay of a potter and partly of iron, the kingdom [Rome] itself will prove to be divided, but somewhat of the hardness of iron will prove to be in it, forasmuch as you beheld the iron mixed with moist clay. 42 And as for the [ten] toes of the feet [which correspond to the 10 horns of the 4th beast, a beast that represented Rome] being partly of iron and partly of molded clay, the [divided] kingdom [that comes about as a result of Rome's fall, and so therefore FOLLOWS Rome] will partly prove to be strong and will partly prove to be fragile. 43 Whereas you beheld iron mixed with moist clay, they [the "ten kings," which picture all governments] will come to be mixed with the offspring of mankind; but they will not prove to be sticking together, this one to that one [because they are independent sovereign nations], just as iron is not mixing with molded clay.--Daniel 2:36-43.

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  Schizm

  Nationalism - 1. Devotion to the interests or culture of a particular nation. 2. The belief that nations will benefit from acting independently rather than collectively, emphasizing national rather than international goals.

  
  

  Daniel 2:43 describes "nationalism":

  43 Whereas you beheld iron mixed with moist clay, they will come to be mixed with the offspring of mankind; but they will not prove to be sticking together, this one to that one, just as iron is not mixing with molded clay.

  What Daniel 2:43 described fits the political scene around the world, with each and every nation being determined to protect and maintain its own sovereignty. Nationalism = "not sticking together".

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  Leolaia

  Rather than impose your own arbitrary requirements on the text, why not let the text interpret itself through the symmetry and parallelism between the different visions? Your interpretation does not take full advantage of the internal parallels, such as between the fourth beast/fourth kingdom and the he-goat, or between the divided kingdom of ch. 2 and the Seleucid and Ptolemy kingdoms of ch. 11 (both of which try to mix through intermarriage, cf. 2:43, 11:6-7, 11:17), or between the "little horn" of ch. 7 and the "little horn" of ch. 8, or between the identical actions of the "little horn" of ch. 7, the "little horn" of ch. 8, the "coming ruler" of ch. 9, and Antiochus Epiphanes of ch. 11. I posted for you a helpful summary of many of the parallels sometime before.
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  funkyderek

  A SMALL HORN GAINS THE ASCENDANCY

  Huh-huh-huh, you said "small horn"
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  Leolaia

  You question whether or not Greece still exercised Universal Rule after Alexander died and the kingdom became divided amongst his 4 generals. The goat [Greece] finds its parallel in the 3rd beast of chapter 7--a leopard that has 4 heads to correspond with the goat's 4 horns.

  I would say to the contrary that the he-goat = the fourth kingdom, not the third. The same language is used in the three visions: (1) the kingdom of iron "crushes" and "breaks into pieces" the other kingdoms (2:40), (2) the beast with iron teeth "crushed" and "trampled underfoot" what remained (7:7), and (3) the he-goat "broke" the horns of the ram and "trampled it underfoot" (8:7). The use of the same language is a clue that these are to be identified with each other. Both beasts, moreover, give rise to a "little horn" (7:8, 8:9), that grew in size and performed the same iniquities described (7:25, 8:11-14).

  Note also how the ram corresponds to the third kingdom (Persia). It "rules over the whole world" (2:39), "power was given to it" (7:6), and "it grew very powerful" (8:4); all three make special mention of its power. The universality of the kingdom expressed in 2:39 is paralleled by the ram in the same verse: "I saw the ram [which was in the east] thrust westwards, northwards, and southwards" (8:4), covering the four compass points or "four winds of heaven" (7:2) that correspond to the "four wings" of the third beast (7:6; cf. 2 Samuel 22:11, Psalm 18:10, 104:3, on "wings" as figurative of "winds"). Compare also Cyrus declaring himself in royal decrees the "king of the four quarters". The swiftness of the leopard in 8:6 also corresponds to the swiftness of the ram, "nothing could escape it" (8:4). It all fits pretty well. And note also that Cyrus and his army is also described as swift in Isaiah 41:3, and this text is itself alluded to in the following verse.

  Finally, one cannot help but note the very close correspondence between 8:23-24 and 11:21-23. Small wonder why Josephus believed that the prophecy of the "little horn" in ch. 8 was fulfilled to a tee by Antiochus Epiphanes.
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  City Fan

  Schizm, what do you think about the comparison of these 2 verses?

  Daniel 7:6 "After that, I looked, and there before me was another beast, one that looked like a leopard. And on its back it had four wings like those of a bird. This beast had four heads, and it was given authority to rule."

  Daniel 11:2 "Now then, I tell you the truth: Three more kings will appear in Persia, and then a fourth, who will be far richer than all the others. When he has gained power by his wealth, he will stir up everyone against the kingdom of Greece.

  CF.
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  Schizm

  City Fan,

  You sure do have a lot of questions. I wish you had a few answers. All you seem to do is ask questions. You hardly ever commit yourself. You hardly ever reply to an answer I supplied you. Why should I continue to answer your questions?

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  Schizm

  Small wonder why Josephus believed that the prophecy of the "little horn" in ch. 8 was fulfilled to a tee by Antiochus Epiphanes. -- Leolaia.

  Yeah, well that's just ONE of the stupid things which Josephus thought.

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  carla

  A question about 29- by the end of 1914 they were expecting persecution, Weren't they actually expecting the end to come in 1914? and then changed it to 1915 for awhile?