Hey dog
if god didn't make the universe, then who made the universe,
No biggy. It popped out of the potential. In the vacuum, particles are always appearing and dissappearing. From a larger perspective, the universe is just another particle.
S
So just WHO made this universe?
by onacruse 29 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Satanus
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Big Dog
Okay, I'm not trying to be obtuse, but again I ask, popped out of the potential? What is that? Or if this universe is one partical in a larger one my question stands, why is there anything rather than nothing, this "stuff" for want of a better word had to come from somewhere, or not? Does it make sense to say that everything just always was?
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Kaput
This is the year 2005. What year would it be if you wish away those two 0's???
That's easy. It'd be the year 2 5.
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Satanus
Does it make sense to say that everything just always was?
No. But, there is/was potential for everything. It's hard to explain the potential. Perhaps like the surface of a lake that is totally smoothe, not a ripple, no turbulence, smoother than a piece of glass. However, above this surface is not air, but void. Also, maintaining that smoothe surface like that is not gravity, no gravity. In this settup, the least infinitesimal bit of turbulence would cause an explosive eruption on that surface, w the turbulence shooting out of it w explosive force. The expansion of the ejection would continue out, perhaps expanding indefintely into the void, a lot like the big bang is supposed to have done/be doing. Meanwhile, the potential, having released it's turbulence, would settle back to it's resting state.
The question that remains is what would cause the turbulence. I'm not sure. Perhaps randomness.
S
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Terry
That's what always bothers me, if god made the universe, who made god? Okay, if god didn't make the universe, then who made the universe, oh, it just always was, doesn't sound like a much better arguement than the one for god.
How anybody discuss something without first defining the terms they are using?
Let me see the definition of "universe" and "god" and then we can talk.
T.
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Terry
No biggy. It popped out of the potential. In the vacuum, particles are always appearing and dissappearing. From a larger perspective, the universe is just another particle.
S
Aristotle again!
Confusing a potential with an actual.
There is no potential good, no potential god and no potential something. 'There IS or there ISN'T. If there IS, then, you have a referent and an actuality.
T.
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Satanus
Terry
There is no potential good, no potential god and no potential something. 'There IS or there ISN'T. ; If there IS, then, you have a referent and an actuality.
Do you have any kids? Could you have kids? Could you have had kids? From what do they come?
S
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Terry
Do you have any kids? Could you have kids? Could you have had kids? From what do they come?
S
You are missing the law of Identity. For a thing to exist it must have identity. A potential child has no identity. It is an empty chair which may or may not have some particular person's butt sitting on it.
You are confused.
T.
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onacruse
This should teach me something: Don't start a thread like this when I have to go to work for 12 hours the next day! LOL
To answer the first question(s):
The koine Greek word for "create" is ktizo (the last letter is actually the "omega"). The Gk. word for "make" is poieo (same last letter). Consulting any Gk. lexicon will show the differentiation between these two words.
In the JW (or any other non-Trinitarian) theology, the meaning is simply this: God is the only Being to which the verbal form, or any of the derivatives of ktizo, is ever ascribed in the NT, or in the Septuagint. Therefore, IT was That which started everything. Jesus, or more accurately, the WORD, is only described performing according to poieo; one who makes, at the orders and direction of another who directs.
However, Vine makes an interesting observation about ktizo (p. 255): "It is a significant confirmation of Romans 1:20, 21, that in all non-Christian Greek literature these words are never used by Greeks to convey the idea of a Creator or of a creative act by any of their gods. The words are confined by them to the acts of human beings."
The variable use of these words is exactly why an etymological analysis would lead nowhere...imvho. But have at it, if you like!
To what I perceive to be a second line of thought in your various posts:
There is, indeed, a considerable amount of mathematical physics theory (particularly quantum mechanical, involving the Heisenberg "uncertainty principle") that would suggest that the "appearance" of the geometric "fabric" that defines the universe of our existence was, given enough time (be that billions or trillions or quadrillions of years), almost a certainty; thus the Big Bang theory. Hawkings, among many others, has produced a considerable and thought-provoking body of theory to support this possibility.
And to a third line of thought (aka Aristotle, mentioned above):
And, insofar as "defining terms": Within the constraints of epistemology, how can one truly define such terms? Or, any terms, for that matter? What do the mere acoustical effects of our lungs and tongues really mean when we utter the words "universe," "God," create," etc.? Every one of these words is expressed from our minds (in a way that we most often like to think is "independent thinking") in accordance with what we were taught that those words, embodying within themselves concepts and perceptions, were intended to mean. Generation after generation repeats those meanings, and evolves those meanings, in such a way that they become so deeply embedded that we don't even know what the original "concept" of that word was...yet we use them all with such alacrity, and assurance.
So, in that respect, I suggest that trying to strictly define those terms (as much as I'd dearly luvver to be able to so do!) is an exercise in futility.
Thanks for your responses; it's an interesting read.
Craig
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Satanus
I know that to drive legally, one must be ready to divulge ones identity. I wasn't aware that there was a law that you have to have an identity before you could exist. Anyway ...
A potential child has no identity.
Agreed. A potential universe has no identity also.
It is an empty chair which may or may not have some particular person's butt sitting on it.
As was the void before the universe decided to attempt to fill it.
You are confused.
I don't think so.
S