I should amend my statement before I get attacked. :-) I was being facetious and realize that I fall far short of my ideals, but the subject of my last post is my ideal.
Of Late Many Here Seem To Be Preaching Aethiesm..
by Qcmbr 167 Replies latest jw friends
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SWALKER
Scully:
Here is one example of late...feel free to read my comment on the thread! When I first saw the title I expected it to be a give and take forum...it seemed to be inviting a response and then I felt it very quickly went to a name calling event. Calling people morons, telling them to stick a sock in it, and saying that Americans are uneducated was not something that I appreciated. That's just my opinion! I said what I did and then moved on...
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/101394/1.ashx
Swalker
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Scully
SWALKER:
Calling people morons, telling them to stick a sock in it, and saying that Americans are uneducated was not something that I appreciated
That would be a valid complaint, so I have reviewed the thread to see if the complaints are warranted.
As to the charge of "calling people morons" and "telling them to stick a sock in it" and "saying that Americans are uneducated", here is what I found:
In post http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/101394/1748994/post.ashx#1748994 by Nate Merit in its entirety:
I think you are not getting the Main Gist Of The Post. Which is, to wit, Fundies who are advocating Intelligent Design are LYING about it. They lyingly claim that religion is NOT their motivation when in point of fact it is INDEED their motivation.
What is wrong with teaching 'intelligent design" in the classroom? Well, for starters "ID" only makes sense if one keeps the scientific discussions very superficial. Real science is not something you can break up into sound bytes for those ignorant of the scientifc disciplines involved. A moron can ask "Which came first, the chicken or the egg? but 'answering a fool according to his folly' is not so simple. An actual scientific discussion is extremely involved and most people do not want to do the necessary thinking and learning in order to follow along.These same people have often been to college and university for some other scientific specialty, and from their studies realize that real science is mult-faceted, complex, deep, and highly involved. They know their particular scientific specialty cannot be explained properly in a few sound bytes for the ignorant. Yet these same folks expect the most complex scientific disciplines on the planet (i.e., origins) to be pablumized into convincing and intelligent sound bytes.
Perhaps I am making myself a bit more clear this time around.
If you are an ID advocate, I am willing to bet a whole poop-load of money that you have never read any anti-creationists books written by teams of scientists from the various specialties involved. If you go to Google, you can find a number of such sources available online, as well as books that can enlighten you. I'm not going to do the impossible and try to write Origin Sound Bytes here on the forum.then, in post http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/101394/1751002/post.ashx#1751002 also by Nate Merit in its entirety:
My my Q !
You wrote:"It strikes me Nate that you set yourself up as a teacher, plug your book, back yourself up with your own knowledge and yet you seem happy to be nasty to your 'audience'. I see right through you."
The rabid hamster Q isn't happy with the corner he has backed himself into? You sir, are the one who responded of your own free will to my post. No one forced you. You responded by revealing that you prefer fantasy to reality. I did not wring that bizarre confession out of you.
What were you expecting me to do when you post in such a provocative manner, even INVITING me to call you a moron and stupid? Tell me Q, please, exactly what sort of a reply were you hoping such a post would elicit? Surely you aren't going to tell me you expected me to pat you on the back and say "Well done!" were you? Of course not. So, there is more than a wee bit of theater in your latest response in which you portray me as a villain and yourself as a martyr.
Put a sock in it Q. You aren't a martyr, merely a bit foolish. If you do not wish me to be nasty, kindly refrain from revealing to me the intimate details of mental mechanics.' However, if you bother to actually read my response to you, you will see that I refrained from accepting your open invitation to call you a moron. Rather, I made it plain that I realize you are quite intelligent and educated, and your problem was a matter of your Will. So, your insults to me in this latest post are simply more proof you walked into this hoping to be 'martyred.'
I refuse to play your assinine game Q. You're an intelligent educated adult so get your **** together.I have not set myself up as a teacher. Kindly cut and paste the post I made setting myself up as a teacher. I have not. Your charge is empty.
I back myself up with my own knowledge? That's bad? Q, you need help in finally breaking free of the JW mindset wherein you were taught to defer to authority figures who will think for you.
In my post I did not dot appeal to my own authority, but to your own intelligence. Look at it again, Q. Both you and Rex accuse me, in a knee-jerk fashion, of appealing to my own authority when in fact I appeal to my readers to use their own intelligence.
I see right through you, Q. You are passive aggressive with a martyr complex. No, a martyr wish. When I am aggressive I am openly so.
Grow up little one.Searching the thread for the term "uneducated" I found the following:
In post http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/101394/1749355/post.ashx#1749355 by Qcmbr:
Hi Nate, I disagree with pretty much all you just said but we'll say no more on that I'm not in an argumentative mood tonight.
I'm a fundamentalist and I don't consider myself uneducated, I'm a believer and I also love science, I know enough to know I'm only scratching the surface of most knowledge and that everyone else is in the same boat as me, I'm arrogant enough to believe I'm right a lot of the time and wise enough to see a similar arrogance in others, I want to be right but quite often I'm too lazy to back up my stance but above all I know that I am unique and that I'm conscious - no one with all the facts, figures, books, speeches, overhead projector slides or bookish rhetoric in the world will ever convince me that life, especially my own existence is anything less glorious and majestic than that promised in the bible. You want to be slime fair enough, I want to be a son of God. Even if you scour the universe and empty it of all its magic, pink unicorns and gods I'll live my dream and if you want to call me stupid or idiot go ahead. I know what happened between God and I 15 odd years ago I can't deny it, wouldn't want to. I try not to preach too much and apolgise for crossing the line every now and then but I can only share what I am and have.In post http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/101394/1755761/post.ashx#1755761 by DanTheMan:
Nate, your points about the difficulty of breaking down the facts supporting evolution into understandable sound-bytes that the uneducated layperson can understand is well-taken. Scientists and educated persons will need every bit of patience they can possibly muster, and then some, if the rising tide of fundamentalism and general ignorance is to be halted.
and the following admission by Nate Merit in post http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/101394/1750480/post.ashx#1750480
Hello Qcmbr
That was certainly an odd statement. I did not subtly insult you. I insulted you quite openly, in response to your having publically proclaimed yourself closed to facts and logic and evidence, preferring a comforting fantasy to reality.
No, it is you that lives in a domed world Q. I prefer the real one with no limits.
Yours not in fundy fantasy,
NateI will grant you that Nate's calling Qcmbr a "rabid hamster" was out of line, but as I said in my earlier post, the remainder of the complaints derive from challenges to Qcmbr's belief system that he was not interested in having challenged or wishing to defend. Fair enough. But then as you see, Qcmbr's statement to Nate "You want to be slime fair enough" was just as out of line and inappropriate. I don't have an issue with Nate referring to Qcmbr's "little God" - quite frankly I'm of the opinion that God can take care of Himself, and if words like that offend Him, He isn't much of a "god".
Could it be that some people are just really sensitive when it comes to logically defending a very emotionally charged subject like a belief system? We've all seen this in action with JWs... as soon as they hear the word Apostate™ they start to quake with fear and loathing and their ability to reason on anything from that point on is limited to mantras about the Organization and the Faithful and Discreet Slave Class. Having said that, I doubt that many people would consider it "wrong" to do what Nate asked in his thread in trying to logically dissect a belief like Intelligent Design. Isn't that what having a "tested quality of faith" is supposed to be about? Isn't that whole point of "making sure of all things" and 'holding fast to what is fine'? If you can't question or evaluate a belief system, if you can't challenge it, how will you know that it's true?
Just my 2¢......
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Big Dog
Could it be that some people are just really sensitive when it comes to logically defending a very emotionally charged subject like a belief system?
Scully,
I think alot of times what you said is the problem, people paint themselves into a corner from a logical/debate standpoint and the shouting begins. But there are times that I think there is something else at work.
People always claim that believers get upset because their beliefs are being attacked with unassailable logic etc, and as I said above that is often the case, however there are times when I think believers are upset because of what they percieve to be extreme disrespect. If they are believers and truly love their object of worship/belief system they are none the too happy to hear someone deride, sneer at, launch profanity at, etc. their object of worship/belief system. It upsets them because something the cherish is being disrespected, the analogy would be I guess someone launching a vicious verbal attack on a loved one in your family. Logic has nothing to do with that, its about respect, someone calling your mother for instance all sorts of deplorable things will often incite people to violence, much less shouting. Its one thing to say that you don't think very much of one's mother, its quite another to call her a lazy whore.
Faith and beliefs aren't about logic, just like love for a family member isn't about logic, it just is. So there are times that I think that is what is upsetting to people that love God, Jesus, whatever, they feel like, you don't want to believe in, worship them, fine, but don't disrespect them to a believer.
Also, just my 2 cents.
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Scully
Big Dog:
People always claim that believers get upset because their beliefs are being attacked with unassailable logic etc, and as I said above that is often the case, however there are times when I think believers are upset because of what they percieve to be extreme disrespect. If they are believers and truly love their object of worship/belief system they are none the too happy to hear someone deride, sneer at, launch profanity at, etc. their object of worship/belief system. It upsets them because something the cherish is being disrespected, the analogy would be I guess someone launching a vicious verbal attack on a loved one in your family. Logic has nothing to do with that, its about respect, someone calling your mother for instance all sorts of deplorable things will often incite people to violence, much less shouting. Its one thing to say that you don't think very much of one's mother, its quite another to call her a lazy whore.
Faith and beliefs aren't about logic, just like love for a family member isn't about logic, it just is. So there are times that I think that is what is upsetting to people that love God, Jesus, whatever, they feel like, you don't want to believe in, worship them, fine, but don't disrespect them to a believer.
That's kind of what I said, right? That faith and belief can be too emotionally charged a topic to discuss on a logical front.
By the same token, atheists would find that it is incredibly offensive for believers to insist that they are immoral, depraved, and going to end up in hell if we don't become believers like they are. I've posted about how annoying it is when a certain believer of my acquaintance tells me that she wants to "pray for me", as though I can't make it through the day without her asking God to open my eyes and make me a believer too. I've also posted about how it is beyond the scope of reason to me why God - if he's "all that" - needs to be worshiped and requires worship from people otherwise he's going to destroy everyone who doesn't worship him. Why give someone "free will" and then set up all these "tests" and hoops to jump through? What is the point of having "free will" when there's a good chance that you'll be punished for using it responsibly? Isn't that kind of like giving your kid a bike and then telling him that he can only ever ride it as long as he keeps the training wheels on?
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tetrapod.sapien
It's the creationists and Bible-believers and pagans that keep me thinking. ...
... - er, sorry, did someone say that already??
seriously you theists and most noble magical thinkers, sure i may not think that you're as smart as me. it's nothing personal. but heck, you got out of one religion already. i know you have it in you for a few more yet. and i do appreciate all the wonderful belief systems here at JWD, otherwise, it would be boring, like a few other atheist boards i have been to that have like 67 rabid atheists for every 2 creationists.
anyways, if you think about it, some fundies are wearing the same hat as the governing body. why do we treat them differently? > i suppose you have a point. i should go find the proper ex-fundy boards where there are just more atheists pissed at whatever religion they are coming from. but then, i find myself back at the 67 to 2 - atheist boards, heh.
it's amazing how much atheists have to walk around on egg shells so that no one's feelings get hurt. i see xians getting offended and worked up about stuff all the time that i would never even break a sweat over if directed at me. honestly. it's not such a big deal. i don't see too many atheists walking around with hurt feelings. it's amazing how empowering a lack of a god is.
precious delicate belief systems. crumble to bits on bumpy roads.
dogma? dogma? you know, atheists are probably the most unorganized and rule-less group of freaks there ever was.
lighten up. but have a nice evening too.
ts
"here, these beans can go over here in this box, and these other beans over here in this box. that's right. beans 1, and beans 2. i'm glad we got this all figured out."
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Justin
People who post here are on various levels of understanding, maturity, etc., and especially new posters should be answered according to the level they are coming from. I have seen questions which simply presuppose that the Bible is an inspired book, and they are expecting an answer with the same presupposition but are given a critical answer instead. There are people who have never thought to question the existence of God - they are asking what God might be like, and are given an atheist answer. I think when we see someone is coming from a completely different space, we should stand back and let those who can help them do so. Otherwise, we're still acting like JWs who have to take every opportunity to impose the "real truth" on others regardless of the consequences. If we don't respect where people are coming from, we're just driving new ones away who might otherwise be rescued from the organization.
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MsMcDucket
Hell! You all have gotten me all confused! Just what the hell am I supposed to post? I don't want to step on anyone's toes. I just post what's on my mind. Just blog type stuff. I'm starting to believe that I'm agnostic or whateva. So, if I start believing that I'm this or that and posting why I think that I'm this or that, I'm going to be lambasted for it? In general, I try to stay away from pro-JW posts, that's why I joined this board. To get support.And I agree with the poster who wrote this:
But to not accept that others are happy or question their idealogy or status quo...well that's just unacceptable.
I don't think that anyone should be forced to post the in a way that makes them feel like they're wimping out. I guess I'll be more careful about where I tread or thread.
I'm new so excuse my ignorance.
One more thing this board is entitled Friends. I thought that you could type whatever was on your mind here?
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stev
We might not have control over what other people say - if they want to insult and ridicule others, that is their responsibility. But we can use critical thinking, and recognize it for what it is -a rhetorical ploy, and refuse to buy into their game.
In the book "The Art of Reasoning" by David Kelley, pages 120-123, the fallacy of the ad hominem argument is discussed:
"An ad hominem argument rejects or dismisses another person's statement by attacking the person rather than the statement itself...But the goal is always to escape the responsibility of dealing with a statement logically, and the method is always to try to discredit the speaker. The ad hominem argument has the form: (X says p) + (X is a bad person)/ ---> p is false. This is a fallacy because the truth or falsity of a statement, or the strength of an argument for it, has nothing to do with the character, motives, or any other trait of the person who makes the statement or argument....In its crudest form, the fallacy involves nothing more than insults - calling one's opponent an idiot, slob, lowlife, airhead, fascist, pinko, nerd, fairy, bleeding heart, wimp, Neanderthal, and so on through the rich vocabulary of abuse our language offers. "Steve
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PoppyR
As a newbie.. I can honestly say, atheistic and sceptical viewpoints do not put me off, but sometimes I cringe when people say derogatory things about god or the JWS.. on the whole I STILL feel that most of the JWS are at heart good people. And I realise that in time my viewpoints may change as I pull further away. I have for example posted a question about which version of the bible to read.. and had responses from people such as 'Why bother' and 'it's a pile of shit' kind of thing. Well.. that's not the way I feel, and you saying it doesn't make me believe it!! And it's not really a response to my post.. I was asking those who still read the bible. I totally feel also that people who are new here WILL be put off by JW knocking. We all know how it is, the first few weeks and months are painful! You still aren't sure if you're right, and the guilt.. my mother would be proud of my guilt.. I totally agree, everyone here should be allowed and free to express their own beliefs, but to try and make someone else believe them.. surely that makes us no better than the JWs!!!
Poppy x