by LittleToe 38 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Joh 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
Something suddenly struck me, while reading the aforementioned verse.
If the Father knows everything (ginosko - to know "absolutely") and hence knows Jesus intimately; how is it possible for Jesus to know the Father in the same way if he's merely an angel or "perfect" human?
Hmmmmmm, curious, eh?
maybe cause John considered them one in the same?...is that what you're getting at LT?
Something I don't quite understand in jw, in the script you mentioned, Jesus is saying , "He" (Jesus) would lay down His life. Not clear on jw thought but this is what I get from husband, that Jesus was simply murdered. As if there could have been some other outcome of events. How could there be any other outcome than His dying on the cross when the OT pointed to that as the final outcome anyway? That was the purpose of His coming. It had to be done for forgiveness of sins. He gave up His life voluntarily. What is husband trying to say? Is he just mixed up?
Well LittleToe, you got me to research again.
At first I got into other words translated "know" like "i'-do" (Strongs 1492, eido¯). But then it occured to me that the difference in I'-do and ginosko is not as important as the fact, as you point out, that Jesus claims to know the the Father the same way the father knows Jesus, regardless of what word he used to convey "know".
To complicate it the previous verse says:
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
KJV John 10:14
Jesus is known (same word, ginosko) by the sheep the same as the Father is known by Jesus. So the question in my mind is what is the nature and significance of the inter-relationship being discribed?
I hope the language experts will comment on this but I'm content to for now to conclude that we can not offer too literal an interpretation of these scriptures without removing the spiritual intent of his comments. In the same discussion in vs 38 we have Jesus saying:
believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
KJV
If Jesus knows the Father the same as the Father knows him and the sheep know Jesus the same as Jesus knows them, and the Father is "in" Jesus just as Jesus is in the father, I wonder if those in tune with the spirit likewise have the father "in" them and themselves likewise are "in" the Father? How would we explaim that literally? Or should we just accept that the message of Jesus has a deeper meaning than most "know" (ginosko)?
Jst2laws
Hmmm.......interesting stuff! I'm looking forward to more comments on this!
jst2laws,
Isn't this where a jw would chime in that by 'know' it is really meant to 'have knowledge of' ? then in that case one could have all the knowledge they want on a person, where they live, likes & dislikes, married or not, etc.. but they don't actually 'know' the person. There are many atheist that know the bible and can recite script but do not 'know' God or Christ.
Steve points to the important point imo; in GJohn the absolute-mystical knowledge (gnôsis, from ginôskô) of the Father which the Son enjoys as Revealer is ultimately shared by all who know the Son -- a fact that orthodox trinitarian doctrine, by maintaining the gap between creator and creature, obscures.
the world did not know him (1:10)
If you know me, you will know my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him. (14:7)
And this is eternal life, that they may know you. (17:3)
Righteous Father, the world does not know you, but I know you; and these know that you have sent me. I made your name known to them, and I will make it known, so that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them. (17:25f)
I am writing to you, fathers, because you know him who is from the beginning. (1 John 2:13f)
everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. (4:7)
how is it possible for Jesus to know the Father in the same way if he's merely an angel or "perfect" human?
He's not.
John 1:1-2, 14
In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.
He was with God in the beginning. The Word became flesh
and took up residence among us.
We observed His glory,
the glory as the One and Only Son from the Father,
full of grace and truth.
(HCSB)
Justin,
Are you trying to imply that Jesus was a mystic? For shame!
The simplest explanation of Jesus saying that he and the Father were one is that Jesus meant what he said. He could have made the relationship clearly exclusive to a connotation of unity by using the Greek word "koinonia" (Strong's g2842) or could have restricted the meaning to of the same mindedness by using "isopsuchos" (Strong's g2473).
But, he didn't. There were words available that meant what the WTS say this means: John 10:30 — I and the Father are one.
Oddly, the Kingdom Interlinear Translation (basically Wescott and Hort's text) translates the Greek in John 10:30 as follows: I and the Father one (thing) we are.
I did not add the parenthetical "(thing)." It does not connote or denote "oneness of purpose." The English can be stretched to that meaning, but this Greek word could not. Do most Witnesses know that? No.
AuldSoul
