John 10:15

by LittleToe 38 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Auldsoul,

    Don't blame Justin!

    What the KIT tries to convey with "one (thing)" is that the Greek uses the neuter (hen), not masculine (heis), form of the numeral. Iow, "one thing," not "one person".

    Whatever it means, again it ultimately applies to all believers/elect.

    and not for the nation only, but to gather into one (eis hen) the dispersed children of God. (11.52)
    The glory that you have given me I have given them, so that they may be one, as we are one. I in them and you in me, that they may become completely one (lit. completed into one, teteleiômenoi eis hen), so that the world may know that you have sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. (17:22f)
  • daystar
    daystar

    LT

    Do you really have a deeper conception of this? Or are you yanking these people's chains?

    I know what it means to me. But I wonder if something similar will occur to anyone else.

  • mdb
    mdb

    jst2laws,

    likewise have the father "in" them and themselves likewise are "in" the Father?

    In Rev 3:20, Jesus says, "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with

    First, who was speaking here? Obviously Jesus was, but Rev 3:22 says the Spirit spoke that we should hear what He saith. We know from the Scriptures that the Spirit is sent (the Helper) and dwells within the man who believes and follows Jesus. Above it says Jesus will come in to him and in John 14:23, Jesus says that He and the Father will make their abode with him.

    "Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him."

    Who is it that has come in to him that believes: Jesus, the Father, or the Spirit? Apparently all three. The Spirit is God, the Father is God, and Jesus is God. God dwells in us in the person of the Holy Spirit.

    The Holy Spirit is not a force, but a person.

    Narkissos, you said,

    "What the KIT tries to convey with "one (thing)" is that the Greek uses the neuter (hen), not masculine (heis), form of the numeral. Iow, "one thing," not "one person"."

    This whole idea of a neuter noun and/or pronoun being used as a proof that the Spirit is an "IT" rather than a person is a poor arguement used by the WTS to support their bias doctrine. The biggest problem with their reasoning is as follows:

    In the greek language, all nouns are one of three genders: masculine, femanine, or neuter. These genders are not indicators of sex, but have to do with the form of the words. There are masculine, femanine, and neuter forms, but ‘bread’ (in the Greek) is masculine, ‘head’ is femanine, and ‘child’ is neuter. Therefore, simply because a term is gramatically masculine does not mean it is masculine in gender, because a term is gramatically femanine does not mean that it is femanine in gender, and because a term is gramatically neuter does not mean that it is an “it.”

    The primary reason the Jehovah’s Witnesses say the Holy Spirit is an “active force” is that the Greek word for “spirit” (pneuma) is neuter. This is faulty reasoning due to the gender of the word having to do with it’s gramatical form and not actual physical gender. For example, in scripture neuter terms are used in reference to infants (Luke 1:41,44; 2:16; 18:15), children (Mark 5:39-41), girls (Matt 9:24,25; Mark 5:41,42), unclean spirits (Matt 12:24,27,28; Mark 7:26,29,30), and angels (Heb 1:14). Obviously, each of these beings have personality, even though a neuter term is used in reference to them. Therefore, the use of a neuter term does not indicate a lack of personality and the argument is erronously made toward the Holy Spirit as not being a person due to the gramatical gender of the Greek word pneuma.

  • Midget-Sasquatch
    Midget-Sasquatch

    I know virtually no Greek, so I can't significantly contribute in those aspects of the discussion. But I must agree with those of you who see a mystical stance in the Gospel of John.

    I'd say that any non christian mystic who reads that Gospel will also say that the message is not just that the Son, but that humans too, are sharers in the divine nature. I wonder though about the absoluteness of those mystical experiences. I realize that many experiences claim just that, they've merged with everything. But just how much can we limited humans currently really "know" about the Father or that Ultimate Reality? I often link "knowing" with a high degree of "certainty". Could that be an important purpose and message of these mystical experiences? Not so much knowing absolutely everything there is to know about the nature of God, the Son and everything, as we now are anyways, but to possess that high degree of certainty of their actually being?

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Gawd, I love the gospel of John!!!

    Well, in the first instance these are passages of scripture that fly in the face of WTS doctrinal explanation. John doesn't present us as tidy a little package as they would like, especially in chapter ten. That's my main purpose in posting this thread.

    I'll try to iterate a number of explanations that could be presented, some of which [are / are not] supported by the language to a greater or lesser extent:

    1. One in purpose and mutual appreciation

    I think it would be clear to say that the text supports that concept at a bare minimum, but actually goes far beyond this. One of the stumbling blocks is the concept that a God could appreciate a "mere" man or angel in the same manner that God is appreciated, or vice-versa. Unless you are to anthropomorphise and reduce "God" down to the level of a man or angel, the kind of comparison suggested by the text is too small in scope.

    Maybe Paul was tackling some of this by suggesting that we cannot know the mind of God but we can know the mind of Christ. If that were to be the case, however, then his argument also falls short of the breadth of the texts in question. Unless we take his comments on currently "knowing only partially" to be waystops on the path to "seeing him face to face" and "knowing him, for we shall be like him", and taking that leap of faith that Paul seems to be suggesting...

    2. One in the same person

    There are various versions of this, including that presented by the Modalists, which certainly help us with the predicament about Jesus claims on status with the Father, but miss out on how others might attain that illustrious status. They would hold that Jesus is just one "Mode" of God, as it the Father above, but usually shy away from the further implications for the church herself.

    3. One in the sense of being equal, as a contemporary God

    Verses 34-36 certain have Jesus playing with that concept from the Judaisers own literature. This is a tad dissatisfying, however, as the general thrust of the text doesn't lend itself to polytheism. The label "God" kind of loses something if there are a number of distinct beings that all share top spot in omniscience, omnipresence, omnipotence, etc. Or am I rather juggling with the idea that words such as "omnipotence" start to lose their meaning in such a construct. Given that omnipotence is only an implied and described attribute of God, rather than something overtly stated in a single term, perhaps I go too far.

    4. One in the same "God"

    This category is perhaps a little more diverse, and it was this one with which the early church juggled for a few hundred years before concluding with a creed that was generally inclusive of most parties beliefs.

    a) The Trinity (and Binity/Duality) would fall into this category, in that Father and Son [and Holy Spirit] are held to be distinct personalities held within a transcendant "God". At it's rawest most anthropomorphised level it might be viewed as a family within the "kind" or genus of a being that is omnipresent, etc. The doctrine generally accepted by most of the church goes a little further, however.

    For the sake of the elaboration of how the church might also be "one", this becomes unthinkable for many. They are content for the church to be a bride, without always taking into account what is implied in such a marital union by the Genesis announcement of spouses becoming "one flesh", or maybe in this case "one spirit".

    b) In pantheism everything is part of God and God is part of everything. Ergo all the criteria are satisfied. The only difficulty I would permit is that often this concept yields a sense of identity, whereas this seems to fly in the face of what we perceive, wherein we have distinct thoughts from our neighbour and suspect that it will always be so.

    c) I would suggest that there is a further elaboration on that view that submits that we are shards of existence of an omnipresent "Divine". That while those shards are conjoined with "God", they also hold their own distinction and personality, reflecting and refracting an ever-present light.

    d) Then there is the view of the atheists that at best would hold that "God" should be replaced with a "personless" universe out of which everything comes and to which everything belongs. Functional, but not very romantic - that not being a reason in and of itself to reject it, however.


    I'm no Leo or Didier, but I think I've generally captured the essense of a variety of points of view. They are generally held by the following groups:
    1. JWs
    2. Oneness Pentecostals
    3. Mormons
    4. Trinitarians / Pantheists / Mystics / Atheists

    Please feel free to pick holes in my statements, and/or correct where you feel I may have misrepresented.

    Just a little more mental-masturbation for you, as you consider all those angels on the end of that pin. For those disinclined, perhaps you might like the task of rearranging the following words into a popular contemporary saying or phrase:

    cat / the / pigeons / amongst / that / the / set / has

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Midget:
    NIce and succinct post - just as I like 'em.

    I'd say that any non christian mystic who reads that Gospel will also say...

    Why do you limit your comments to non-christian mystics?

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    mdb,

    Narkissos, you said,
    "What the KIT tries to convey with "one (thing)" is that the Greek uses the neuter (hen), not masculine (heis), form of the numeral. Iow, "one thing," not "one person"."

    This whole idea of a neuter noun and/or pronoun being used as a proof that the Spirit is an "IT" rather than a person is a poor arguement used by the WTS to support their bias doctrine. The biggest problem with their reasoning is as follows:

    In the greek language, all nouns are one of three genders: masculine, femanine, or neuter. These genders are not indicators of sex, but have to do with the form of the words. There are masculine, femanine, and neuter forms, but ‘bread’ (in the Greek) is masculine, ‘head’ is femanine, and ‘child’ is neuter. Therefore, simply because a term is gramatically masculine does not mean it is masculine in gender, because a term is gramatically femanine does not mean that it is femanine in gender, and because a term is gramatically neuter does not mean that it is an “it.”

    The primary reason the Jehovah’s Witnesses say the Holy Spirit is an “active force” is that the Greek word for “spirit” (pneuma) is neuter. This is faulty reasoning due to the gender of the word having to do with it’s gramatical form and not actual physical gender. For example, in scripture neuter terms are used in reference to infants (Luke 1:41,44; 2:16; 18:15), children (Mark 5:39-41), girls (Matt 9:24,25; Mark 5:41,42), unclean spirits (Matt 12:24,27,28; Mark 7:26,29,30), and angels (Heb 1:14). Obviously, each of these beings have personality, even though a neuter term is used in reference to them. Therefore, the use of a neuter term does not indicate a lack of personality and the argument is erronously made toward the Holy Spirit as not being a person due to the gramatical gender of the Greek word pneuma.

    Did you really read before replying?

    I have absolutely not discussed pneuma, just the Johannine use of the neuter hen (one) referring to the unity comprised of the Father + the Son + the believers/elect. Now you can read the Spirit into that if you wish, but it is quite unnecessary to the current discussion.

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul

    LT, I agree that all the possible explanations you present are actually possible except for one. There is no way to stretch the meaning of hen to encompass the connotation of oneness in purpose.

    There are perfectly serviceable Greek words that do convey that idea (I cited a couple of the dozen or so that were available) and any of them could have been used instead. A speaker who wished to convey that thought would never choose that word. There is a way to stretch the connotation of the English word one to mean that, in its metaphysical sense, but the Greek word hen doesn't swing that way at all—it would never be used to convey that idea.

    AuldSoul

  • daystar
    daystar

    I can relate this to the concepts of the macrocosm/microcosm... as it is above, so it is below... Adam and Adam Kadmon.

    The art moreso than the book.

  • mdb
    mdb
    I have absolutely not discussed pneuma, just the Johannine use of the neuter hen (one) referring to the unity comprised of the Father + the Son + the believers/elect. Now you can read the Spirit into that if you wish, but it is quite unnecessary to the current discussion.

    Just using the opportunity afforded by your mentioning of a neuter term to bring to light a Watchtower interpretative fallacy in regard to the Holy Spirit. Might have been slightly off the topic (not really), but I had to do it. I wasn't attacking you and I did read your thread completely.

    Besides, do any of these threads actually stay on topic? Being here is like being on a rollercoaster ride sometimes.

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit