Ripping Apart The Faithful & Discreet Slave Doctrine Slashes A Foundation

Mysterious

Bang on minimus. And when their faith in the FDS is shaken they no longer give the "where are we to go" argument, because they realize that where they go does not matter as they are certainly not leaving anything important or god directed and approved.
Finally-Free

Yet by their own definition, they dispense it.

Really, all JWs dispense it - some to the congregations, some to publishers™, some to householders, some to laundromats. The society, by saying they didn't produce it, but merely dispense it, are putting the blame for all their errors on God.
W
IP_SEC

1. New light is silly- Israel was given the complex Law all at once, not over a period of 120 years. The dubs try to use the account where Moses recieved direction about a special inheritance situation to show that "see there were refinments to the Law" Bollocks.
If the christian congregation could not be taught the "full range of healthful teachings" all at once because it would be too "blinding", why do JWs expect bible students to conform their lives to these teachings in a very short period of time? Talk about being blinded by the light.
2. By the context of Jesus words at Matt 24, it is easy to understand that the FDS would not be revealed until his COMING, not during his suposed invisible presence starting in 1919.
Sorry bout the spelling, too lazy to open a word processor.

Atlantis

From MDS Feb/03/2001/ http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/2505/1.ashx

THE WATCH TOWER SOCIETY AS THE "FAITHFUL SLAVE"
Part I.

Jesus, in the closing days of his ministry, left parting words of encouragement for his disciples. He constantly urged them to "stay on the watch," to stay alert, to stay "awake." Clearly just as the crucial events which would lead up to the end of Jesus' life were about to come upon the apostles, we are reminded that Jesus' admonitions also has much weight for us today. Why? Well, that is because much of what Jesus instructed his disciples about coming, future events actually has it's major fulfillment upon us today. Yes, most of these prophecies have its major fulfillment in our day and time. Let's examine one of these prophecies that sheds light upon the future.

At Luke 12:35-40 we find these words:

"Let your loins be girded and your lamps be burning and you yourselves be like men waiting for their master when he returns from the marriage, so that at his arriving and knocking they may at once open to him. Happy are those slaves whom the master on arriving finds watching! Truly I say to you, He will gird himself and make them recline at the table and will come alongside and minister to them. And if he arrives in the second watch, even if in the third, and finds them thus, happy are they! But know this, that if the householder had known at what hour the thief would come, he would have kept watching and not have let his house be broken into. You also, keep ready, because at an hour that you do not think likely the Son of man is coming."

Peter, being deeply interested in what his master had to say on this subject, wanted to know whether Jesus' warning of constant vigilance and watchfulness applied specifically to (a) his faithful followers, or (b) those of the world in general. Therefore Peter asked the question in verse 41 of this same chapter:

"...Lord, are you saying this illustration to us or also to all?"

Rather than answer Peter's words directly, Jesus chose to do as he had done many times before — he chose to respond with a question, yes a parable even. Jesus said in answer to Peter's question as recorded Luke 12:42:

"Who really is the faithful steward, the discreet one, whom his master will appoint over his body of attendants to keep giving them their measure of food supplies at the proper time? Happy is that slave, if his master on arriving finds him doing so! I tell you truthfully, He will appoint him over all his belongings."

Yes, all Jehovah's Witnesses are quite familiar with this particular illustration — the "Faithful Slave" illustration. Also, the account mentioned at Matthew 24:45 makes an almost identical reference to the same "slave" being vested with authority by his master by saying:

"Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time? Happy is that slave if his master on arriving finds him doing so. Truly I say to you, He will appoint him over all his belongings."

Therefore, who really is this particular "Faithful Slave" that has been placed "over" or "appointed over" the Lord's interests, his "household" or "domestics?" Well, before we address these questions, let us first review the teachings of the Watch Tower Society of Brooklyn, New York since, for over 100 years, this particular "corporation" has indeed claimed to be the fulfillment of the promised "Faithful Slave," acting in behalf of the Lord in managing his "household." Let's examine exactly what the Watch Tower Society teaches the "Faithful Slave" of our modern times is.

THE "FAITHFUL SLAVE" — ACCORDING TO THE WATCH TOWER SOCIETY

The Watch Tower Society has long taught that the "Faithful Slave" and/or "Faithful Steward" class are represented namely as the entire composite group or "remnant" of anointed Christians on earth, at any given time for the past 1900 years since Jesus. It is also taught that these particular individuals as such, represent the remaining members of the 144,000 spiritual Israelites of Revelation chapters 7 and 14. It is further taught that up until the year of 1919, this spiritual "anointed" slave class busied themselves in properly handling the Lord's "household" or family of "domestics" (anointed Christians themselves) and thus received the final promotion or `appointment over the Lord's Belongings' in the fateful year of 1919. These "belongings" prove themselves to be the "Great Crowd" of Christians who do not claim to have any heavenly aspirations, and are thus not in the "New Covenant," mediated by Christ Jesus at his death. And, as far as the designations go of "Faithful Slave" versus "Faithful Steward," the only difference between the designations was mentioned in the following quote from the Watchtower magazine. It states:

"Jesus' remarks concerning this `Slave' are very much like those concerning the `faithful steward, the discreet one.' Plainly they apply to the same class, but the term `steward' is specific as to the type of work that the `Slave' does." (See Watchtower, 10/1/81, pg. 23, 18.)

Further, it has long been taught by the Watch Tower Society that these two prophecies of Matthew 24:45 and Luke 12:42 were fulfilled when Jehovah and Jesus visited the "temple" class in 1918, found the anointed somewhat lacking and started a refining period that lasted from 1918 and ended in the spring of 1919 in fulfillment of Malachi chapter 3. (See Watchtower, 6/15/87, pp. 15-20) At this time (1919), the "Faithful Slave" or the "Faithful Steward" Class (anointed remnant on earth) was awarded a favorable judgment before Jehovah and received an "appointment" over the Lord's Belongings which proved to be:

(a)the privilege of preaching God's judgments to the nations and,
(b)an appointment over the influx of interested persons of the Great Crowd. — See Watchtower, 3/1/81, pg. 29, par. 3.

Finally, it is argued that this "Faithful Steward" is actually a "juristic," "legal," "corporate" slave of sorts. Yes, the "slave" is really a corporation or business entity, that has been empowered by Jesus Christ himself, to do "legal" business for the Head of the congregation, and thus given "legal" recognition by the "law of the land." Let's notice this particular comment taken from the Watchtower magazine. It states:

"Reason, backed up by similar Scriptural examples, makes it clear that the `steward' pictures a class, a collective body, corresponding to a juristic person, a legal person like a corporation that is recognized by the law of the land." (See Watchtower 10/1/81, pg. 22, 11.)

Now, what do you think of that?

QUESTIONS TO PONDER ABOUT THAT "SLAVE"

1)However, is this truly the case? In other words, is it true that there has only been a grand total of 144,000 anointed faithful, dating from the 1st century congregation and the apostles all the way down to the 20th century?

2)And is it also true that only a remnant of this special "anointed" class, some 8,000 or so, are actually alive today and are scattered among the 90,000 congregations of Jehovah's Witnesses worldwide?
3)Is it true that these remaining 8,000 members of the so-called "anointed remnant" actually form the composite body of what is known as the "Faithful Slave" or "Faithful Steward" of our times,
and as such, have been awarded the appointment over the Lord's entire household of "domestics" and "belongings" since the year of 1919?

4)Finally, is it really true that Jesus Christ actually authorized a "corporate" slave to take over and oversee his congregational interests until his "return?"

The following information will help us see whether there is scriptural validity to these particular claims of the Corporate Headquarters of the Jehovah's Witnesses, known as the Watch Tower Society?

"GO THEREFORE AND MAKE DISCIPLES...BAPTIZING THEM"

Jesus left this important command for all Christians by saying:

"Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And, Look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things."

Most Jehovah's Witnesses are aware that the Watch Tower Society teaches that

(a) Jesus has been gathering only the anointed members of the congregation consisting of the 144,000 since the 1st century,

(b) the 1st century congregation was made up only of individuals who were spirit-begotten, spiritual Israelites, who were `heaven-bound' and thus, joint-heirs with Christ in his kingly inheritance,

(c) only a total 144,000 faithful Christians were selected to be a part of this group, and (d) the 144,000 of anointed christians were gathered under the direction of our Lord Jesus Christ, primarily until the year of 1935.

However, if that were so, it would mean that, for the past 1900 years since Jesus gave this command to:

that only 144,000 faithful disciples have been gathered up to this `certain' date of 1935. Therefore, one could ask the following questions:

Why are the Jehovah's Witnesses today, comprised of two main groups, namely the larger "Great Crowd" that have earthly aspirations, and the much smaller `heaven bound' group of some 8,000, the "anointed remnant?" Isn't it true that since the majority of Jehovah's Witnesses do not claim have the heavenly calling, that this in itself proves that Jesus must have been gathering first an "anointed" group of christians who have implanted within them the "heavenly hope" and later, since the year of 1935, Jesus has been gathering those who have "earthly" aspirations?" Yes, why is it that Jehovah's Witnesses have both groups within their midst?

Well, first of all, we need to remember the command Jesus gave his disciples at Matthew 28:19, 20. Do you have it in mind? Now, did Jesus really say:

"First, go and make for me 144,000 disciples of the people of the nations. And then, when you have reached the desired number, I will then begin to gather the Other Sheep?"

Is that what Jesus said to his disciples? No, he did not! But as we go back in time, that is precisely what the Watch Tower Society told the Jehovah's Witnesses to do, yes commanded them to do, in reference to fulfilling Jesus' words. Let us see how this has worked out.

THE GATHERING OF THE GREAT CROWD SINCE 1935???

The Watch Tower Society teaches us that Jesus, after having completed his gathering of that group of the 144,000 of so-called "anointed," would turn his attention to gathering the "Other Sheep" who conveniently began showing up in large numbers during the years 1931-1935 by Divine Providence. (See Watchtower 2/15/82 pg. 30, par. 14, 15; Watchtower 2/15/84 pp. 17-18, par. 10, 11; John 10:16.) The Watch Tower Society admits that they (the other sheep) had been on the earthly scene even before that date but they could not be scripturally identified. And so we ask the question:

"Why were there so few individuals, professing to be of the "Other Sheep" in association with the organization before the year of 1935?"

That is a very good question. There is a good reason for this situation, as we shall soon see. To properly answer this question, we need to go back in time to examine the beliefs and teachings of the Watch Tower Society. Prior to 1935, individuals interested in God's Word fell into three basic categories, as far as the Watch Tower Society was concerned.

1) First, of course, were the anointed who were dedicated and baptized as members of the Christian congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses (International Bible Students before 1931). These were said to eventually make up a Grand total of 144,000 selected from the 1st century down to 1935. This teaching is supposedly based upon Revelation chapters 7 and 14.

2) Next is the presumed secondary heavenly class (bridesmaids or attendants) who did not expect to be Kings and Priests in Heaven, but, nevertheless, would have the privilege of going to heaven.

3) And, finally, there were the third group who was thought to be "men of good will" who `did good' to Christ's brothers and thus looked forward to earthly life but DID NOT dedicate or get baptized and consequently become a part of the Christian congregation.

And again, why did this third group of individuals not get baptized? Was it because Jehovah's Spirit was not directing such individuals to follow in the footsteps of His son Jesus Christ and the first century congregation and get baptized before the year of 1935?

No. To the contrary, it was the Watch Tower Society themselves that thought it was not necessary for such individuals to dedicate their lives to Jehovah and get baptized. Yes, they did not think it was necessary for these ones to get baptized until the year 1934!

Notice this comment from the Watch Tower Society's own publications:

"However, there was then no issuing of a call to them [persons with earthly hope], there was no specialized effort or arrangement to gather them into one flock with the `anointed' remnant. It was first in the year 1934 that the statement was published that it was scripturally fitting for these `Other Sheep' (pictured by the faithful Jehonadab of ancient time) to dedicate themselves to Jehovah God and get baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit." (See Life Everlasting - In Freedom of the Sons of God, pg. 147, 52.)

Did they say "Scripturally fitting???"

Remember what Jesus said at Matthew 28:19: "Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, BAPTIZING THEM . . ." There can be no question, no doubt, but that because of this mistaken viewpoint on the Watch Tower Society's part, problems, yes, serious problems developed. Problems, that even today, have not been fully straightened out. However, by returning to the scriptures, we can get Jehovah's viewpoint on this matter.

PUTTING THE BLAME WHERE IT BELONGS

John 6:44 says:

"No man can come to me unless the Father, who sent me, draws him."

Yes, Jehovah's Spirit "draws" individuals to Himself. Therefore, when a person shows a sincere interest in God's Word and thus seeks to please Him in all things, that person is being `drawn' by Jehovah. But again, we notice the Watch Tower Society has a problem here. Remember, they said they did not think it was "scripturally fitting" to baptize these individuals that Jehovah was "drawing," right??? So, by their own admission, they, the Watch Tower Society, made

`no specialized effort or arrangement to gather them'

because these individuals did not claim to have any heavenly aspirations. Remember, the Watch Tower Society felt it was not "scripturally fitting" to baptize these individuals. They made no "arrangement" to baptize them as Jesus had COMMANDED! Clearly, they did not do what Jesus told them to do!

As Luke 6:46 says:

"Why, then, do you call me `Lord! Lord! but do not do the things I say?"

However, after the year of 1934, these individuals were baptized. Therefore, we can see, that if there was no effort made to gather them or baptize them — then one would not expect to have many of them among the fold who could say that they were baptized before the year 1935 — wouldn't you think? And that is why the congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses world-wide is made up of individuals who have been baptized only since the year of 1935 and thus look forward to life upon this earth. Really, if one didn't know all the facts surrounding this situation, one might get the idea that Jesus was indeed gathering only the 144,000 up until the fateful year of 1935. But the truth about the matter shows that the Watch Tower Society actually created the situation we see today among Jehovah's Witnesses, this division of two distinct groups with different aspirations for life in the future. Think about it.

No wonder there weren't any noticeable clusters of individuals in the Christian congregation expressing a desire to live in an earthly paradise before the year of 1935! No wonder there was so much special interest on the part of these ones, after the year 1935, in living on a paradise earth! Yes, it was the Watch Tower Society's own mistakes that caused the whole situation! Now what do you think of that???

Therefore, this situation raises awkward questions for those who did get baptized before the year 1935 as to whether they really are of the anointed. Remember, EACH and EVERYONE of them was erroneously taught, yes point-blank told that they MUST be of the "anointed" class, since during the time of their learning of Jehovah, the "heavenly hope" was the only hope open to Christians. Therefore, these individuals who wanted to serve Jehovah and get baptized, were forced to say that he or she had "heavenly" aspirations. There can be no doubt that this particular teaching of the Watch Tower Society has certainly resulted in obvious confusion in the lives of individuals as to future life prospects. We have cited a couple of examples to prove this was the case. First, let's examine the following situation as recorded in the Watchtower magazine itself that was reported to have happened to a new convert in the year of 1913. We have quoted the key part of the experience below. The person telling the experience, in their words, reveals the true intensity of the situation for a new convert by saying:

"In 1913, when I was 17, I traveled to London for a sight-seeing vacation. Happily, this coincided with a visit by Brother Russell to an assembly held at the Kingsway Hall. There I expressed my desire to be baptized...I donned a long black gown and joined the other candidates for immersion at the London Tabernacle. I remember so well the words we sang as we came out of the water: `Buried with Christ and raised with him too, What is there left for me to do? Simply to cease from struggling and strife, Simply to walk in the newness of life.'

"Afterward, a brother approached me and said: `You must be the last one of the 144,000 to come in; you only have such a short time left to make your calling and election sure.' Such were the thoughts of many who viewed the approaching year, 1914, with great expectation." — See Watchtower, 9/1/88, pg. 20, par. 6.

Did you get it? Do you see the pressure that was put upon individuals that were newly converted back in those days, to say that they "must be of the 144,000." Do we see it?

Now, let us examine another experience that worked out with the exact opposite result. The following is another life experience, told in the person's own words about this situation in the year of 1930. The experience, as quoted from the Watchtower magazine is as follows. It states:

"When I was baptized in 1930, there was little understanding regarding those who would have everlasting life on earth. So both John and I partook of the emblems at Memorial time, as did everyone then. Even in 1935, when the "great crowd" of Revelation chapter 7 was identified as an earthly class of "sheep," our thinking was not altered. (Revelation 7:9, John 10:16) Then in 1952, the Watchtower on page 63 published a clarification of the distinction between the earthly hope and the heavenly hope. We came to realize that we did not have the hope of heavenly life, but that our hope was of life on a paradise earth." — See Watchtower 4/1/89 pg. 29 1.

Did you get it? Yes, these individuals did not have the "heavenly hope" at all. No, they were simply told that they must have the "heavenly hope," that's all. They were just doing what everybody else in the congregation was doing, namely, partaking of the emblems and thus making themselves a part of the 144,000 of "anointed" Christian followers of Christ. Actually, what choice did they have, back there in 1930? Therefore, for many years they continued partaking of the emblems, thinking that they were of the "anointed." Remember, they had no choice to express any different viewpoint of the matter during that time. No, none at all!

The natural consequences of this particular "teaching," culminated in 1925, when, believe it or not, the preposterous number of 90,434 individuals partook of the Lord's evening meal as members of the "anointed remnant!" That's right, a total of 90,434 individuals actually thought they were of the "anointed remnant." If that number was really genuine, then over two-thirds (2/3) of the 144,000 were alive in the year of 1925. How ridiculous! (See Jehovah's Witnesses In The Divine Purpose, pg. 110, 6.) Could there be something amiss here?

As in the examples cited above, there can be no doubt that many, yes many individuals within the confines of the Jehovah's Witness Kingdom Halls worldwide, are still, very, very confused on this matter. Think about it. And too, no doubt many of these same "confused" individuals, are in the United States of America, since close to half of all professed anointed ones alive as the "remnant" on earth today, some 3,684 as of 1988, are reported to be living in the U.S.A.! (See Our Kingdom Ministry, 8/88, pg. 4.) We think you can agree with us that something has to be wrong with this present understanding of matters! These statistics, as presented above, actually do not seem reasonable to thinking christians. (Philippians 4:5) To clear up any confusion, we must be humble enough to let the Bible be the LAST WORD on such important teachings! Let us do precisely that.

ONLY 144,000 CHRISTIANS FAITHFUL SINCE JESUS???

To say that only 144,000 faithful Christians had reached their "goal" by the year 1935 is ridiculous even from an historical review of the facts at hand. For example, according to the Watch Tower Society's own publications, there were many, many individuals that apparently gave their lives for the cause of Christianity during the "ten persecutions" of Emperor's Nero's time. In fact, back in 1952, an interesting question was presented to the Watch Tower Society on this timely subject. The question and it's answer was published in the 1952 Watchtower magazine under the subheading: "Questions from readers." The following is an actual quote from the article. First the question:

"According to the article `Hated for His Name' in the September 1, 1951, Watchtower, hundreds of thousands of Christians died in the `ten persecutions' starting in Nero's time, 144,000 dying in Egypt alone during one of the persecutions. How can this be harmonized with the Scriptural limitation of 144,000 placed on the number being in Christ's body, and which position was the only one open to Christians during those centuries?"

An excellent question, wouldn't you say? And now, the answer. The Watch Tower Society responded by saying:

"The article did not class with any finality the individuals that died during these persecutions, but spoke of the results in a general way. Note that a key qualification was made in the case referred to in the question: `In the province of Egypt alone, 144,000 such professed Christians died by violence in the course of this persecution, in addition to another 700,000 who died as a result of fatigues encountered in banishment or under enforced public works.' The victims are identified as "professed Christians," not Christians in fact. Many of those persons might have been caught in the wave of persecution, but may never have actually preached the truth or followed in Jesus' footsteps, being only professed Christians. They knew the world they lived in was rotten and they were listening to the message of the Christians and willing to die for it even though not in line for the high calling in Christ Jesus. Many professed Christians today might be willing to die for their faith, but still not be Jesus' footstep followers and meeting the Scriptural requirements for such." — See Watchtower 1/15/52, pg. 62.

Did they say "professed Christians" that were DYING in the "ten persecutions" of Emperor Nero's time??? Yes, the Watch Tower Society said that there were some 144,000 individuals, willing to die for their belief, in Egypt alone during one of the persecutions! And, remember, that does not include another 700,000 "professed Christians" that died as a result of "fatigues encountered in banishment or under enforced public works." Now, we ask, were they "professed Christians" or were they true Christians? What would you say? Well, as you have just read, the Watch Tower Society says in the article that they were merely, "professed Christians" and not real Christians. No, they couldn't be because Jesus was merely interested in making only a total of 144,000 "anointed" disciples up to the year of 1935, right??? Isn't that what they want you to believe?

PONDER THIS:

Do you really think that someone would be willing to die for the cause of being a Christian and yet not really be a Christian or an integral part of the congregation — and hundreds of thousands of individuals at that? Of course not! Why would someone who is uncommitted and has not dedicated his life to do God's will be willing to go this far? That borders a little on the ridiculous, wouldn't you say?

Obviously, the congregation in the 1st century was much larger than 144,000. No, the apostles and other disciples of Christ were not concerned about gathering a certain number of 144,000.

THINK ABOUT THIS:

If Jesus left explicit instructions to "baptize people of all nations," how would the apostles know when to stop baptizing individuals when they reached the desired number? Remember, they didn't even know about a certain "144,000" until John received the Revelation around 96 C.E. or the end of the century, according to the Watch Tower Society.

But the persecutions of Nero would be some thirty (30) or more years previous to this, right??? Therefore, how would the disciples know when to cut the baptism procedure, since thousands, yes, hundreds of thousands of individuals believed so strongly in the message that they were willing to die for it! How stupid could an individual be to believe such a thing in the face of these facts! There is no earthly way, no possibility, the apostles and faithful disciples ever dreamed up a foolish idea as what the Watch Tower Society has taught for so many years. No, the apostles and Christian disciples of the 1st century, spread the message, taught and baptized all, and we mean all, who would listen. And they were not hindered by any foolish count system like a 144,000 quota. No, the 1st century disciples fully followed Jesus' command at Matthew 28:19-20 to:

"Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them . . . ." — See also Colossians 1:23.

IN CONCLUSION: To say that Jehovah God and Jesus Christ have merely gathered 144,000 Christians, grand total, up until the year of 1935 is absolutely and completely ludicrous! This is totally out of harmony with the facts we have at hand.

End of Part I.

"Behold it, you scorners, and wonder at it, ...YOU WILL BY NO MEANS BELIEVE even if anyone relates it to you in detail." -- Acts 13:41

Edited by - MDS on 3 February 2001 22:57:29

DannyHaszard

The WT Revelation it's Grand climax at hand book states plainly that Armageddon starts when the last of the Watchtower's anointed is sealed.
Yes,they think heaven and earth including the 'judging of all mankind and angels' revolves around them.The arrogance of their ruthless egotism.
1914 is bogus ergo 1919 and ground zero for the sealing and everything else that is attached.In legal circles this is known as the fruit from the poisonous tree doctrine, it all gets tossed out.
Sunspot

I have been having this "debate" with a pompous JW on JW Debate @Beliefnet just today!
The first poster (Jace) had brought up the "past truths" garbage and this DLJ poster got his undies in a bunch about it, saying that nowhere on the CD-ROM was the "past truth" ever mentioned. (Like we all didn't know what this term meant anyway). So I replied to his post and you can see how nasty he got:
Jace, It is quite a stretch from a late 1800's quote about "present truths" to what you propose is a pervasive "concept" among us where false understanding of the past is allegedly renamed with misleading intent as "past truths". A term you STILL have not shown in any publication whatsoever despite your cautioning that the WT-CDrom is not comprehensive. If you can't come up with a quote, then I would say it is comprehensive enough. The fact is we do not consider discarded teachings to be "true" at all or else we wouldn't have changed them in the first place.
DLJ
MatureThinker
11/28/2005 7:31 AM 27 out of 31

***it is quite a stretch from a late 1800's quote about "present truths" to what you propose is a pervasive "concept" among us where false understanding of the past is allegedly renamed with misleading intent as "past truths".
(Me)----Is it a stretch to say that while these "truths" were being understood and taught AS truth, that they were, indeed NOT truth, but mistakes and misinterpretation of men?
***The fact is we do not consider discarded teachings to be "true" at all or else we wouldn't have changed them in the first place.
(Me)---Tidying up these mistakes and the countless "misunderstandings" when the WTS utterings have been proven faulty, continually weakens any credibility that might have "been there" at the onset.
The "fact" IS, that these should not have been stringently TAUGHT and thus regarded as "truth" in the first place. TRUTH does not "need to be changed" and remains the same.
DrivesLikeJehu
11/28/2005 12:41 PM 28 out of 31

MT:
Is it a stretch to say that while these "truths" were being understood and taught AS truth, that they were, indeed NOT truth, but mistakes and misinterpretation of men?
DLJ:
No it would not be a stretch, it would be an accurate description of what they were. Hence they were changed as our understanding progressed.
MT:
Tidying up these mistakes and the countless "misunderstandings" when the WTS utterings have been proven faulty, continually weakens any credibility that might have "been there" at the onset.
DLJ:
So anything less than perfect understanding from the beginning "weakens credibility"? I'm sorry, but you are holding to an impossible standard that God himself has not ordained or expected. There is nothing in the scriptures that indicates the Christian congregation must have it accurate in all things from the very moment they approach an issue. In fact, the scriptures say the opposite as I have pointed out numerous times.
"11 And he gave some as apostles, some as prophets, some as evangelizers, some as shepherds and teachers, 12 with a view to the readjustment of the holy ones, for ministerial work, for the building up of the body of the Christ, 13 until we all attain to the oneness in the faith and in the accurate knowledge of the Son of God, to a full-grown man, to the measure of stature that belongs to the fullness of the Christ"
If we were to apply your standard, I guess their "tidying up their mistakes" via "readjustment" whenever necessary "weakens credibility" in the congregation then? Hardly, such "tidying up" is the correct thing to do when it is realized a mistake has been made theologically.
MT:
The "fact" IS, that these should not have been stringently TAUGHT and thus regarded as "truth" in the first place. TRUTH does not "need to be changed" and remains the same.
DLJ:
I'm sorry that we thought we were right when we thought we were right. How odd of us. It's very easy for you to look back and criticize, but at the time a mistake was made in the understanding, and this birthed the second mistake of enforcing it AS "truth". One naturally followed the other. If we could have been perfect in all understanding from the beginning then this would never happen. But we aren't.
Secondly, of course "truth" does not "need to be changed", but if it is discovered NOT to be, then what we hold to as "truth" should indeed be adjusted. That is the right thing to do.
DLJ
MatureThinker
11/28/2005 2:12 PM 29 out of 31

***It's very easy for you to look back and criticize, but at the time a mistake was made in the understanding, and this birthed the second mistake of enforcing it AS "truth". One naturally followed the other. If we could have been perfect in all understanding from the beginning then this would never happen. But we aren't.
(Me) Yes, it is VERY easy to criticize when one can step back and see the WTS for what it is, a faulty and misleading organization.
(Me) It has been pointed out already, but what excuse does the WTS have for making and teaching one of their "mistakes", and then realizing that it WAS a mistake, changing that mistake---only to revert BACK TO the "mistake" that had been previously changed?
(Me) This would be known as the "flip-flopping" of WTS truths, which are never really discussed but just glossed over and totally accepted by WTS devotees.
(Me) So...given your reasoning, just how IS THIS explained?
DrivesLikeJehu
11/28/2005 2:21 PM 30 out of 31

MT,
Please do not hop around. You claimed:
Tidying up these mistakes and the countless "misunderstandings" when the WTS utterings have been proven faulty, continually weakens any credibility that might have "been there" at the onset.
I responded by pointing to Ephesians 4 to show that that "tidying up" is a Christian practice, not something that should "weaken credibility". Please deal with that response before jumping to the next aspect of the issue.
DLJ
MatureThinker
11/28/2005 4:24 PM 31 out of 31

***Please do not hop around.
(Me) I will "hop around" and ask any questions I wish to. Please don't direct me on how to do so.
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Home > Community > Discussions > Religion Debate Forum > Jehovah's Witnesses Debate

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You'll notice how the question is avoided.......unless you're a JW of course! I have also asked numerous times just how, other than the WTS just "saying so", can they prove that Jesus inspected them and found them worthy of being the ONLY religion approved by God? I have yet to get a reply on this----except when I kept BTTTing the topic and one die-hard JW told me to "look it up for myself" in their literature! Great answer, huh?
JWs are painfully uptight on "old literature" and having their feet held to the fire when it comes to those "impossible" questions! Talk about the blind (WTS) leading the blind (JWs), to their own ends!
Annie
sf

mini,
Calm down or you will melt.
sKally
minimus

SF, maybe in YOUR hand??
sf

Ha! Maybe in YOUR dreams. lol...
sKally
FairMind

hubert, I read "Captives of A Concept" and it certainly dismantles the FDS doctrine as applied to the WTBTS. The problem as I see it is that the GB themselves believes their own revisionist history and thinks that they lead this mythical FDS class. Once an incorrect idea is firmly implanted in one's mind it is hard to shake. The truth only sets those free who want to be free.

Ripping Apart The Faithful & Discreet Slave Doctrine Slashes A Foundation

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